JobMakers Podcast

Production of Pioneer Institute + The Immigrant Learning Center

JobMakers is a podcast collaboration between The Immigrant Learning Center and the Pioneer Institute. In each episode, Director of the Public Education Institute Denzil Mohammed interviews an immigrant entrepreneur about their story, their business and their contributions to their community. The project highlights the unique resilience and journeys of foreign-born entrepreneurs. Explore the story of a refugee child who escaped pirates and grew up to found a law firm, a woman of color who opened a hedge fund in her dorm room and much more.

To learn more about immigrant entrepreneurship, explore our page of resources, our Immigrant Entrepreneur Hall of Fame or our video interviews with immigrant entrepreneurs. To receive new JobMakers episodes in your inbox, sign up here.


Episode 54: Mariam Nusrat

JobMakers podcast graphic: Miriam Nusrat takes gaming to new heightsAs a Muslim woman, Pakistani-American Mariam Nusrat has always stood out among STEM startup founders. Her venture-backed Gaming Revolution for International Development provides a platform to easily create low-cost video games, and her not-for-profit Gaming Revolution for Inspiring Development creates games with a positive social impact. Tune in to learn how she plans to empower every smartphone owner in the world.


Episode 53: Yuliya Tarasava

JobMakers podcast graphic: Yuliya Tarasava invests in Americans who need it mostBelarus American Yuliya Tarasava’s impact investment platform CNote facilitates investments in women, minorities and low-income communities. Tarasava founded CNote to dismantle systemic barriers to success, and her efforts have provided 4,000 jobs in disadvantaged communities. Tune in to learn how her immigrant background made her passionate about giving everyone a chance at success.

Episode 52: Jackie Krick

JobMakers podcast graphic Jackie Krick trains the next generation of entrepreneursColombian-born Jackie Krick struggled when she first tried to start a marketing communications firm, but her hard work has paid off. Now she runs a thriving business that specializes in cross-cultural services. Krick also founded a not-for-profit that offers education and skills training to underserved youth. Listen to learn why she thinks immigrants are twice as likely to become entrepreneurs as U.S.-born people.

Episode 51: Artur Sousa

JobMakers podcast logo: Artur Sousa's social entrepreneurship pays offHis own experience adopting a rescue puppy inspired Brazilian-born Artur Sousa to create a platform to make pet adoption easier, less expensive and more accessible. Sousa has used his tech expertise, international experience and passion for social entrepreneurship to enable thousands of shelter adoptions. Tune in to learn why Sousa believes not all immigrants have access to the American Dream.

Episode 50: Karina Calderon

JobMakers podcast logo: Karina Calderon on how immigrant entrepreneurs help cities growAs a first-generation immigrant and successful businesswoman, Karina Calderon is perfectly positioned to help immigrant entrepreneurs thrive through her work with The Lawrence Partnership. The partnership helps Lawrence’s businesses grow and strengthen the local economy. Listen to learn how Calderon believes their model can scale to help more communities replicate their success.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and welcome to JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: The city of Lawrence, Massachusetts, is one we’ve talked about before. Why? Well, out of its 90,000 strong population, 40.8 percent is foreign born and more than 80 percent identify as Hispanic or Latino. According to The Immigrant Learning Center, it has the third highest concentration of immigrants in the entire Commonwealth and it’s buzzing with immigrant entrepreneurs. For Karina Calderon, deputy director of the Lawrence Partnership, a collaboration of business and civic leaders started in 2015 to help grow businesses in a way that benefits all its residents, that immigrant entrepreneurship is the engine driving the growth of the city. She and the Lawrence Partnership are tasked with incubating, training, assisting, loaning, basically doing everything they and their partners can to grow the city’s businesses. The model they’ve adopted is replicable, for sure, and is one based on long standing relationships and trust between new and longtime residents. Karina explains how it works, shares some of the success stories of the immigrant small business owners and details her own immigration story of making it in the States by herself, as you learn in this week’s JobMakers.

[music playing]

Denzil Mohammed: Karina Calderon, deputy director of the Lawrence Partnership, how are you? Welcome to JobMakers!

Karina Calderon: Thank you. I’m very good. I’m very happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Denzil Mohammed: So tell us a little bit about the Lawrence Partnership. It’s a fairly new initiative and it’s all about making Lawrence bigger and brighter and better, right?

Karina Calderon: It is for sure. So the Lawrence Partnership, it came out of a collaboration of the private sector, the public sector and also the nonprofit sector. So we have a very robust board of directors of 30 to 32 leaders, local leaders that are executive directors, presidents, CEOs of local, big companies that are here in Lawrence. They saw a need of coming together and in working towards creating an inclusive economic development for the city of Lawrence.

Denzil Mohammed: And what does inclusive economic development look like?

Karina Calderon: So we do that through different initiatives and I can tell you a few of them. So you know how I told you that we have a very robust board of directors? Some of them are presidents of different banks in the area. And something that they did was that the bankers in our board, they came together and they invited some other banks, also local, to come and put together a fund. And it’s called a venture loan fund. And the idea of this fund is to be able to provide loans to businesses, small businesses that are considered non-bankable. So if a small business owner needs a loan, goes to bank X-Y-Z, which is a huge bank, and they get denied, they can go to our venture loan fund and apply for a loan there. And the main interest of our bankers is to inject this money into the community and help the small businesses with the needs that they have. So what they did was they each came with about a hundred thousand dollars, and right now we have a $1.1 million venture load fund. And [to] date, if I’m not mistaken, I know that we have lent a little bit more, but last time that I checked, that I had an actual report, it was about $600,000 that we had put out in the streets to the small businesses since last summer when we relaunched the venture loan fund. So that’s a way for us to create that inclusive economic development. That’s one of the initiatives, that it’s big on that.

Karina Calderon: Another initiative that we also have, it’s called a revolving test kitchen. It started as an incubator. So it started … It was a collaboration between Sal Lupoli, who had a restaurant actually in our building on 420 Common Street, Northern Essex Community College, the Lawrence Partnership, and also the city of Lawrence. Sal had that restaurant there. It didn’t work out for him. It wasn’t a Sal’s Pizza or anything like that. It had a different name. So then Northern Essex, who rents the building, told them, “Sal, you have that space there with all that equipment, let’s do something about it.” So we came together and we were able to give this space to a food entrepreneur that wanted to test his recipes, test his business plan. And we gave him the space for a year, so they could run it as a restaurant. They didn’t have to worry about overhead or anything like that. They did have to pay $500 a month, which if they, by the time that they were done with their one year period, if they opened a brick and mortar in the city of Lawrence, they would get all their money back. So we did that for three years. It was a successful program. Also, let me just say that, let me just add that besides using the space and that help with the rent and stuff like that, they also got technical assistance. So the team from Sal Lupoli was giving them some pointers and education on certain areas that they needed help with, like setting prices, cost of good salt and things like that. The city facilitated them getting certain licenses that they need in order to operate their business. So it was a true collaboration. So, like I said, three years we did that. Three successful businesses came out of there. CocoRay’s on Market Street in South Lawrence, El Encanto who ended up opening a food truck and then Bocaditos who decided after that she wanted to do safe-surf classes in Spanish for the Hispanic community. So three success stories each in their own way.

Denzil Mohammed: This does sound very, very collaborative. And I, and when you introduce the ideas of getting licenses and permits and that kind of thing, that is, especially for immigrant entrepreneurs who are not familiar with the system and need that kind of technical support, that’s really important.

Karina Calderon: About two, three weeks ago, we had an event. We called it How to Start a Business and Expand it in the City of Lawrence. And we were very intentional because you may know that about 89, 90 percent of this community is Hispanic. So we were very intentional about making this event in Spanish.

Denzil Mohammed: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative]

Karina Calderon: And we had simultaneous translation services inside so people could feel comfortable. Because if there’s something that is true, is that I feel like people get to trust you a little bit more when they, when you are speaking their same language. They feel more comfortable. The walls come down. We had two panels. The first one was different business owners, local business owners talking about their experiences, giving tips, what worked for them, what didn’t, things like that to inspire the entrepreneurs that were there watching them and listening to their stories, so they can know that there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. And then the second panel, it was organizations like ours, like Mill Cities Community Investments, Entrepreneurship for All, Merrimack Valley Planning Commission, Federación Hispana de Comerciantes, which is like a Hispanic chamber of commerce type of organization, they were there and also the city of Lawrence. They were there talking about the resources that are available for business owners. And it’s unbelievable the lack of information that it’s out there. It’s a huge challenge. People are not aware of the resources and some resources are going untapped because not everybody has access or not even, they don’t even know about their existence. I learned about a few things there, myself.

Denzil Mohammed: It almost seems as though immigration was a key, played a key role in the model of the partnership, because you had to reconcile with and recognize that their language barriers, because these are new Americans and immigrants learn English over time, that it happens, but at the start when they need to get a leg up speaking their own language literally, as you said, builds trust. But I wanna ask this. This is happening now. You said you, the Partnership, started in 2014. Why did it take so long for something like this to happen?

Karina Calderon: Relationships, they take time to build that trust. It takes time. So I think that possibly, maybe that had a little bit of a factor. But we are not being shy now. Before, I remember we didn’t take credit for anything. We would do the work. We would work with a group of partners. We would do the work, we rolled up our sleeves, do the work, and we didn’t need to take credit. Not that we’re doing it now. But we’re just doing it a little differently because we do want people to know that the Lawrence Partnership is here. And it’s very important. It goes back to trust, that they don’t only know that we’re here, but that they see the people … We are a team of three, George Ramirez, the executive director, myself, and then our new star Giselle Peguero. And it’s important that when they see us, they see they can picture themselves because we look like them. We are here because we care about the community, and the community … We look like them, they look like us. We are one and … our priority is to bring this community forward.

Denzil Mohammed: And I imagine, of course, that’s not just the Hispanic community that you’re reaching out to. It’s everyone.

Karina Calderon: Everyone, exactly. Everyone. And thankfully we can navigate in the different cultures. And we have partners, also. Like I told you, we’re not doing, we’re not necessarily doing this alone. So where one is lacking, the other one is compensating. So I’m not worried.

Denzil Mohammed: And you mentioned Entrepreneurship for All, a really, really fantastic initiative. I see that they’re even in northwest Arkansas now.

Karina Calderon: Yes.

Denzil Mohammed: Started by Desh Deshpande, who’s also a big legend in the Merrimack Valley area, legendary entrepreneur. So what does the economic landscape in Lawrence look like today?

Karina Calderon: So right now, let’s say we have a group that it’s working [on] revitalizing the downtown of Lawrence. We have these beautiful flower pots on every corner, beautifying the streets. We have building owners working on the facades of their buildings on Essex Street, trying to make it more appealing and more inviting for people to feel comfortable and come to Essex Street and to Lawrence in general. We have great restaurants. So I hear some people, that they say we wanna make Lawrence the mecca of food. I’m like, yeah, sure. Bring it on. Let’s make it happen. And we have people that are working on that. We also have huge companies, local companies that are affecting the economy positively. We have Gemline, Able Womack, and both of them in an industrial park, and New Balance, it’s also here in Lawrence, very committed to the city and in helping it succeed.

Denzil Mohammed: I like the idea of a destination city for food because Malden, Massachusetts, is that. We take so much pride in the fact that we have such a variety of restaurants and just so many of them. You can get pho. You can get Thai food. You can get Mexican food, everything. A new ramen place just opened up on Pleasant Street.

Karina Calderon: Nice.

Denzil Mohammed: And you talked about Essex Street, which, of course, is like Main Street in Lawrence.

Karina Calderon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. [Affirmative]

Denzil Mohammed: So tell me about the role of immigrants in the economic development of Lawrence overall, especially those immigrant business owners.

Karina Calderon: I think that they are the ones running the city. A lot of our businesses are immigrant, sometimes non-English speaking. And I have to give some kudos to our partner, Entrepreneurship for All, ’cause they have E para Todos, which is the Spanish version of their program. And sometimes I’ve seen reports of the work they do and they would tell you so many immigrants, and it’s like 93 out of 100. [Laughs]

Denzil Mohammed: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative]

Karina Calderon: It’s a big number. And these are people that, they’re hungry, they want to succeed. They came here because they had a dream and this is the land of opportunities. That’s what I was told before I came, before I moved to this country. And that’s how I see it. And many people see it like that. So, yes, immigrants are the ones running the small business community in Lawrence, for sure.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s fascinating and a very, very important point. And you said that they’re hungry. They come here with a desire, with a yearning, they have to succeed and they’re inherently entrepreneurial. Just the fact that they moved to another country not knowing if it’s gonna be better or worse is itself an entrepreneurial act.

Karina Calderon: Exactly.

Denzil Mohammed: Really inherently entrepreneurial. And I’m glad that the city of Lawrence is really capitalizing on that and optimizing it to the benefit of the entire community. And you just mentioned that you came here from another country as well. What is your immigration story?

Karina Calderon: So I am Dominican. I was born and raised in Dominican Republic. I came to spend the summer in Hampton Beach because I was in college there. I was going to architect school. And they had this program where college students could come for the summer, spend the summer, work, practice the language and then go back home. So I came twice. I came 2002, 2003. And then in 2003 my mom told me when I was getting ready to go back home, she goes, “Why don’t you stay and try to open doors for us. Things are a little rough here.”

Denzil Mohammed: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative]

Karina Calderon: Mom, are you serious? Like, I don’t have anybody here. I don’t. And she …

Denzil Mohammed: And you’re just a kid.

Karina Calderon: Twenty-two years old.

Denzil Mohammed: Yeah, exactly.

Karina Calderon: But it happened at the right time because, let me tell you, if it happened to me now, I don’t think I would’ve had the same energy and the same drive. So I stayed with some friends that I made along the way, and I … A lot of things have happened, but that’s another story for another day. But I am so glad because those ups and downs that I went through helped me to be where I am today. And this is not even my final destination just yet. There’s still much more to be done. But I am so grateful for the community that welcomed me. I have no family here. It’s just me and my two daughters, but I have a great network of friends, of colleagues. So I’m grateful for what the city has done for me. And I think that it’s only right that I keep doing the same thing for the city.

Denzil Mohammed: Perfectly said. Very, very well said. That’s incredible. And to think that, I mean, people take for granted how hard it is as an adult especially to learn a whole new language, a whole new culture, all the different laws. And you’re embedded in all the licensing and credentialing and permitting and all these different things. What is a credit score? You know, what is that? So many things to learn and you … I’m so pleased that you chose to stay with your mother’s encouragement.

Karina Calderon: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative]

Denzil Mohammed: How does it feel for you, knowing how difficult it would’ve been back in the Dominican Republic, to have your daughters grow up in Lawrence and in the United States?

Karina Calderon: I feel very appreciative and very blessed. If my daughters would be here, they would be rolling their eyes because one thing that I used to tell them since they were very little was … And they would verbatim repeat it as I was saying it, because I said it so long. So, I mean, I said it so many times that I would … I used to tell them, listen … ‘Cause my oldest one, she was born in Dominican Republic, so an immigrant. The little one was born here. But I told her, listen, we came to this country to be the best version of ourselves, to take advantage of those opportunities that they give us and work with them and be the best version of ourselves. Because back home we didn’t have that, the education. We don’t. We were blessed back home, at least my family, that I did have access to an education, but many people didn’t have the same luxury. So to come here and see that anybody, as long as they want it, they can have that education. I know that there are their challenges because not everything is easy. Then you have to have some skin in the game. But I just told them, let’s be that, let’s be the best versions that we can be. And I’m just grateful … I never thought that I would end up here. Like I told you, I came for a summer to have fun with my friends and make some money and bring it back home. And to end up here and make my life here and to live in this community that is home now, it’s wonderful.

Denzil Mohammed: And you’re having an impact.

Karina Calderon: [Laughs]

Denzil Mohammed: You’re having an impact on the city of Lawrence and beyond. And I hope others, municipal workers, are listening in to this to really realize how important these partnerships and these relationships are toward a more inclusive economic situation wherever they are. You have to get everyone’s … Everyone needs to be at the table, whether they’re new or old and the new tend to be that hungry, those hungry people who will take that risk and start a business.

Karina Calderon: Exactly.

Denzil Mohammed: And try it out and hopefully end up being successful. Karina Calderon of the Lawrence Partnership, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers.

Karina Calderon: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast on immigrant entrepreneurship and contributions produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s powerful story of immigrant entrepreneurship. Remember, you can subscribe to JobMakers on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And please give us some stars. I’m Denzil Mohammed, see you next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 49: Evan Silverio

JobMakers podcast logo: Evan Silverio builds on immigrant mother's business successEvan Silverio built on the success of his immigrant entrepreneur mother by pushing her business to new heights and founding a new enterprise of his own. Taking lessons from his mother and grandfather, Silverio built real estate and insurance agencies that have thrived and employed people despite immense economic hardship. Listen to learn how he’s repaying his community through volunteering and offering tens of thousands of dollars in scholarships.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed. Welcome to JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: In a report from The Immigrant Learning Center titled, “Adult Children of Immigrant Entrepreneurs,” it was found that children of immigrant business owners tended to work careers that helped people. Social work, health care education, rather than entrepreneurship. Makes sense. They’ve seen how much effort it takes to run a business in a new country while trying to learn the language laws and customs at the same time. In fact, the report found that the parents often dissuade their children from following the path they chose. For Evan Silverio, child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic, president and CEO of Silverio Insurance Agency and founder of Diverse Real Estate, both in Lawrence, Massachusetts, he bit the bullet and with the example set by his mother who founded the agency, achieved success. Eventually getting into real estate during a housing bust wasn’t easy, but just like the perseverance his mother embodied, Evan stuck with it and has since purchased nearly 100 properties across the Commonwealth. Evan describes the example set by his immigrant mother and grandfather and how that shaped not just his approach to business, but also his approach to giving back to the community that nurtured him, kind of like those other children of immigrant entrepreneurs I mentioned, as you learn in this week’s JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: Evan Silverio, president CEO, Silverio Insurance Agency, and manager of Diverse Real Estate, welcome to the JobMakers podcast. How are you?

Evan Silverio: Thank you. Thank you so much, thank you for having me.

Denzil Mohammed: So tell us a little bit about your businesses and also perhaps tell us a little bit about the things that matter most to you as a professional and an entrepreneur.

Evan Silverio: My mother was, you know, extremely intelligent, hardworking, fearless individual. It was myself and two older sisters that were born here. You know, it’s interesting, she gave me the name Evan because she liked the name, but because she thought it was going to be easier on me in my transition in the United States, right. But funny enough, a lot of people find it confusing and they call me Kevin, so it didn’t go as, as planned. My parents were strict, they were also very aspirational coming from another country. Indirectly, I learned a lot through their own struggles as immigrants; long working hours, failing out at a lot of business, different business ventures, navigating the school systems, helping family with immigration paperwork. I remember a story about my sister, my oldest sister going to school and my mother really had to fight for her, for them to accept her in the school system and not put her in a Spanish-speaking, I guess …

Denzil Mohammed: Like an English language program or something? 

Evan Silverio: Yeah, yeah, like she wanted her to be specific and I remember that being a huge struggle and eventually, you know, she put up such a fight that they allowed her to participate and my sister did fine and she excelled. Yeah. So it was interesting. But for us, it was normal and we’re around a lot of immigrants, so it made it even that much more normal.

Denzil Mohammed: So you spoke a little bit about your mother and I think you alluded to her determination and her perseverance in the situation with your sister at school. Tell us a little bit more about your mother. She is an entrepreneur, a community leader. She even ran from mayor of Lawrence. That is incredibly cool and incredibly, as you say, aspirational. Tell us more about her.

Evan Silverio: Yeah, like I mentioned, you know, when I think about my mother just intelligent, hard working and fearless, but also funny, passionate, you know, bighearted. I think, I think she spent most of her life making sure that everyone else was okay and that’s exactly how she formed her business and why she gave dedicated long hours to the community, her church, her family, right. Her business was basically established because she was helping friends and family fill out paperwork, do translations, immigration consulting, then after that it leads to taxes and eventually to insurance and it was more out of her dedication to her community that she also found a way to monetize it and say, “Okay, well, I need to also run a business.” So, there has to be some fees associated with that. but it wasn’t about the money either because most of our time through the community was volunteer work, right. City counselor, or running for mayor and, and saying, you know, or her time on the boards, more volunteer work than anything.

Denzil Mohammed: I do want to make a point that, you know, she started these successful businesses here and as you say, it indirectly affected and improved the community. But she would not have been able to start her own business back in the Dominican Republic if she were living there, right?

Evan Silverio: The opportunity to help other people who really needed someone like her. A voice, a representative of sorts. And I think, you know, she used all of the skills she had and really shined being here in particular in Lawrence. But I think the type of person my mother was, she would’ve been successful in the Dominican Republic. 

Denzil Mohammed: So let’s turn it over to you now. Tell us about your real estate business that you started in 2009 while still in your twenties. What has that been like and how do you see this business growing in the future?

Evan SilverioYeah, the real estate business is just essentially myself investing in real estate. So prior to jumping on board to the family business, I was a loan officer for a total of nine years. I think, four years before jumping on board and then while I was doing insurance, I was also continuing the loan officer career. And the reason being is I just needed the money, right. When my mother came and asked me to jump into the family business and she couldn’t afford much, right. So I said, “Okay, let me, you know, come on board and I’ll continue doing mortgages as best I can with the same amount of time.” Through mortgages and through being a loan consultant I just recognized real estate a little bit. I could understand it a little bit and I decided, you know what, I think I can throw my hat in the ring and, and try to make some money in real estate. And my first two investments failed. They were terrible failures. And so, yeah, so it was pretty interesting. It was during the real estate boom and bust and I got caught with some real estate in my hand, but for some reason I said to myself, I still believe, you know, that this is a good time to invest. So while everybody else was kind of backpedaling, I got back on the horse, started investing again, and it was hard, you know, you have to sacrifice, you have to make sure you do good by a lot of people. You know, as I mentioned earlier, it was a lot of hard money lending in order to get some investments in. But, you know, the reason that I thought it was interesting was my reasoning kept on changing over time. Initially it was, you know, if I can just get a property to pay for my auto loan, that’d be great. And then it said, well, if I could do that, I can get a property to pay for, you know, wherever I was gonna live and that would be great. And then it just kept on going and snowballing and you know, and a 100 properties later, you know, you change it and say, well, passive income, it has a retirement plan, there’s booming equity. And now it’s funding certain acquisitions for the insurance agency. So it’s kind of working out well.

Denzil MohammedWow. I like how that balances out with the insurance agency too. And as you say, a 100 properties, that is incredible. So you spoke a lot about your and your mother’s community involvement and, you know, the model of her business, you know, helping people with immigration forms and taxes and venturing that into a business, monetizing it. Your involvement today stretches from the Lawrence Redevelopment Authority to a scholarship fund you started with Grammy-winning producer and Lawrence native DJ Buddha. So, tell me what is like the guiding principle behind this kind of work that you do?

Evan Silverio: Honestly, I think it just comes from this responsibility to give back, to contribute. The scholarship fund as you mentioned with DJ Buddha, you know, he was a Lawrentian such as myself. He went to Central Catholic with me and I think post-graduation, once we had some money in our pocket we had a clear understanding that the reasons we were allotted certain opportunities was because of the opportunities that we were given to attend, you know, a higher education than the high school level and we wanted to give other people that same opportunity. We think that really was a pivot, a game changer for us in our younger years and if other people can have that same experience and we can make that same pivot for other people, then, then we were going to put some effort into that. But I think it really comes down to the responsibility to contribute and give back where and when we can. I think now where I have less time on my hands I know that I still have in the back of my head because part of the whole business plan, be it with real estate or be it with the insurance, is to make sure that successful enough that we can continue to contribute to those in the private sector, nonprofit or just community, advocates that align with our belief system. And hopefully we can contribute because they need capital to do what they do. So if we can be a source for them then, then we’ll be happy to be. 

Denzil Mohammed: As you talk about community development, I really think deeply of Lawrence, which of course, you know, had all the mills and it had that sort of boom and then it sort of busted. And it became a place where immigrants moved in because the rents were cheap. I recall your mother saying that it wasn’t until Latinos were elected to the City Council that things really began to change for minorities in terms of access to help and growing their businesses and things like that. In terms of economic development in Lawrence, where do you see Lawrence headed and what changes would you like to see, or what changes would you like to, to help bring about? 

Evan Silverio: Yeah, Lawrence is definitely evolving. And I think that you’re looking at the tail end of some great things, right. Lawrence 15, 20 years ago is a totally different Lawrence. And I think, I think we have a lot of communities asking our local leaders right now, “How did Lawrence do it?” I was just on a call the other day with, I think it was Chicopee asking and picking our brain on, “Hey, you know, we, we saw everything that you were able to do, you know, can you give us some, some pointers,” right. And, and what’s funny is the pointers really come down to that, you really just have to have enough people invested who want it bad enough to roll up their sleeves, to try to get the work done, right? Whatever changes and the better the plan than, than the better, the more the buy-in. But if you don’t have the people it’s gonna be a very difficult thing to move the city. In Lawrence, we have that. We have private, we have public, have nonprofit, all collaborating and working together. This has been the fundamental difference. There is no one person or entity who’s done it all. It’s a combined effort over a long period of time. So I think a lot of people say, oh, wow. Overnight, no, it’s, you know, 30 years in the making. So it definitely takes a village but we need more villagers to take pride and to participate. We can’t afford to wait for someone else to make these changes for us. We need to be the change.

Denzil Mohammed: And it’s safe to say that immigrants, business owners, workers, community members are part of that change. In Lawrence, I was, I remember talking to Theresa Park on this podcast and she was very proud of the work that she was able to accomplish in Lawrence, which was incidentally the place where her Korean family moved when they first came to the us. Finally, you said your, you know, your grandfather moved from the Dominican Republic to the U.S. and eventually sent for your mother. It wasn’t an easy task for either of them. And, you know, your mom walking around with dictionaries at school and I have that vivid memory in my head, but she stuck with it and here you are. Reflect on those risks that they took and compare it perhaps to the risks that you take as an entrepreneur. 

Evan Silverio: ‘Cause I, I think about it off, I think about it often the risk that they take and I think a lot of what I’ve done has been based on thinking about in retrospect, the sacrifices that were made by all of those that came before me, I think I mentioned that earlier. I think about a lot of the risks that I’ve taken as an investor, you know, the hard money lending, the, the large risks that I’ve taken. And I by far cannot compare that to the risks of my grandfather, my mother, my father, who came here. You know, when I think about it, I think it’s because I still live in my comfort zone and my choices be it co college or career, we all closely, you know, relative to where my family is and, and what I thought my options were. But just having those options, just having options in general, I think a lot of people take for granted. You don’t have to be right about your options, but you still have options, right. But their risk and their decisions revolved around something deeper the safety of their families, to put people in better positions, that’s not so much themselves, but their daughters, their sons, their, and the sons and daughters of, of sons and daughters to have more resources. You know, they, they, weren’t looking to be millionaires. They were just looking for a better life and they risked it all to do so. They came to this country with no real money, no real connections and no resources until they got here and they figured it out, right. There was this, this myth that the country that they were going to had this stuff waiting for them. And this was still a better option than just staying put, right? And, you know, I think nobody goes into something and, and takes risks and says, “This is a bad idea, but let me do it anyway.” Everybody thinks whatever risk they’re taking is because there’s some reward and something and I think in retrospect I, myself and the reward and hopefully my kid’s kids as well of all the sacrifices that they’ve made,

Denzil Mohammed: I did not mean to exclude dad. We have to mention dad as well. Lastly, I’m sure that they’re gonna be young brown boys and girls, teenagers, people in their twenties who perhaps consider starting their own business. What advice would you give to young budding entrepreneurs, or what are some of the lessons that you’ve learned that you think you would like to impart? 

Evan Silverio: There’s nothing built, nothing beats out keeping your word, you know, building trust, you know, those things that’s what everything is based off of, right. Relationships with bankers, relationships with networking people, all of that is gonna continue building the more that you can build your trust with them and complete the task that you say you’re gonna complete. If you continue doing that, I think more people will follow you, I think more people will trust you, I think more people will invest in you and you have to be willing to take that risk on yourself and say, you’re good enough and you’re trustworthy enough and, and don’t break, don’t break that for anything or anybody, not even money. And if you keep at it, you will succeed. 

Denzil Mohammed: Not even money. I love how you phrased that. Evan Silverio, President & CEO of Siverio Insurance Agency in Lawrence, Haverhill and Woburn and sole manager of Diverse Real Estate, thank you so much for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. This was a lovely and fascinating interview.

Evan Silverio: Thank you so much, Denzil, for having me and I love the podcast, and I’ll continue to keep listening.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not for profit that gives immigrants a voice. I am so happy that you joined us for this week’s powerful story of immigrant entrepreneurship passed down to the next generation. Remember you can subscribe to JobMakers on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 48: Abul Islam

JobMakers podcast logo: Abul Islam helps rebuild America's infrastructurePakistani American entrepreneur Abul Islam is determined to use cutting edge technology to repair the United States’ struggling infrastructure system. He also believes that a strong immigration system and a homegrown STEM talent pipeline are both vital to making that happen. Listen to learn how he built a $50 million company from the ground up!

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and welcome to JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: So we finally have an infrastructure bill signed into law last November. America’s infrastructure is not in good shape and we need solid infrastructure to grow the economy. How else do we get to work? Ship supplies? And travel from here to there? But who’s doing the rebuilding? For Abul Islam, immigrant from Pakistan and founder, president & CEO of AI Engineers, headquartered in Middletown, Connecticut, he’s one of the people helping to rebuild America. AI Engineers is a consulting firm that builds and rehabilitates bridges, transportation systems, and building systems throughout the U.S. Since 1991, AbuI has created nearly 1,000 jobs and today leads a $50 million company. Abul believes in power of education, particularly in science, technology, engineering and math, or STEM, to uplift urban centers and create a pipeline of skilled workers. Because while we draw that talent from international students and H-1B workers, it’s something the U.S. is sorely lacking in its own students and future workforce, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Abul Islam, founder, president, CEO of AI Engineers in Middletown, Connecticut, welcome to the JobMakers podcast. How are you?

Abul Islam: Thank you, Denzil. How are you doing?

Denzil Mohammed: I’m pretty good. So give us the 30-second pitch about your company, AI Engineers. What do you do?

Abul Islam: We do consulting, engineering, construction management for usually government agencies, state, municipalities. We’ve also worked for federal government. Ninety percent of our business is with the state DOTs, government agencies, clients that own transportation networks. And the business has grown from two people, me and my wife, in 30 years to 261 people, six offices, Middletown, Connecticut, as our headquarters. We have grown significantly in the last five years. We started as a minority disadvantaged business. That was a great help. And now we are looking forward to growing this business, actually doubling our revenue in the next three years.

Denzil Mohammed: So why do you consider this line of work important? And briefly, how has it evolved over the years? ‘Cause you’ve been around for, what, 30 years now?

Abul Islam: Yes. This line of work is important for our country, our society, our community, because if you don’t rebuild your infrastructure, which is about at least 50, 60 years old … bridges, highways, public buildings, water, wastewater, sewer systems … if you don’t rebuild them, you will not have growth and economic development. And we in the U.S. were the pioneers of building the first world-class highway, connecting 3000 miles east-west, 2000 miles north-south, the crisscrossing highways. But then somehow after the ’80s, we did not expand anymore, unlike China and other emerging countries who has really invested a lot more since the mid ’80s or early ’90s. And they have more modern infrastructure from high-speed trains to [inaudible] interchanges, highways connecting big cities, transportation, intermodal network and so on and so forth. So our business is absolutely critical in rehabilitating, upgrading and repairing our bridges and highways. So it’s all the more important for us to really rebuild our infrastructure now that we have finally got some money in the infrastructure bill to rebuild our infrastructure so that we can sustain our economic and social development. And that’s how critical infrastructure is and that’s our line of business.

Denzil Mohammed: Thank you for articulating that it’s so key to economic growth and that there was a time when we weren’t growing as fast as other countries. So you were born in Pakistan and a lot of Americans don’t have any idea what life is like in other countries. Can you sort of just take us back to your childhood in Pakistan and paint us a picture? What was it like growing up?

Abul Islam: It was good generally back then when I was growing up in the late ’60s, ’70s and ’80s. I came to the United States January 1983 and life wasn’t that bad. I enjoyed my time in Pakistan when we were growing up, going to the engineering school. I used to hang out at the U.S. Information Center, for that matter German or French, in Karachi, cultural centers and all that, and learned a lot about other countries and cultures by being in Pakistan before I even decided to come for my graduate studies in engineering.

Denzil Mohammed: So education was something that was really important in your family, right?

Abul Islam: Yeah, absolutely. As I said that my grandfather got an English education, that was almost like 110 years ago. And then he got a government job with the Indian government, which was the capital in Kolkata, which is Calcutta back then. And successively, all of the family members went to schools, 12-year schools, colleges in Karachi, New Delhi, wherever. Our family spread all over the subcontinent and they made it a point to send their kids to school. Even if they have economic difficulties or challenges, middle class people, two parents working for a government making ends meet, but they’re paying the tuition fee for sending their kids to English school or the local schools, taking a lot of attention on what they study. We were seven brothers and sisters. I was the second one.

Denzil Mohammed: You arrived in the U.S. in January of 1983.

Abul Islam: That’s right.

Denzil Mohammed: In New York City. What was the experience like when you first moved here?

Abul Islam: I was excited, although I didn’t have a lot of money. I didn’t know how I would meet my expenses for the next one and a half years. I didn’t have the tuition paid. I got an interest-free loan and some grants to pay for my tuition for first, second and third semester, but I just had an allowance of $200 a month for living expenses. You couldn’t just live in New York City for $200. All that was in 1983, the minimum was there like $700 back then for a student, but I had $200. That was why, so I had to do work in the campus, outside the campus and full time student, but I didn’t complain. I worked whatever opportunities came along my way. I worked and without a lot of money I had a good time.  I tried to immerse myself in the cultural milieu of New York City, which I loved. So many people from so many countries, so many intellectual discussion, music. You used to get $2 music tickets at the Juilliard School or others, where you can be there, fraction of the price, in a concert or something. So all these things were not there in Pakistan, the cultural part, the art part, other than engineering, which also expand my vistas and horizon with regard to life, society, and community. So I can make a distinction between where I am from and how this society is different.

Denzil Mohammed: I love how you were already such a curious person and to be able to absorb all that New York City had to offer. And you’re an engineer, but you’re absorbing music and art and history and politics. Really, really fascinating. But you did not intend to be an entrepreneur. You didn’t come here with the intention of starting a business. What brought you into this space of entrepreneurship?

Abul Islam: Need basically. The engineering salary was hardly enough to sustain a family. I just got married in ’89. I had my first born in ’90. I had signed up for a mortgage in March 1990. People were advising, “Hey, there’s a minority business program.” And my big company that I used to work for, I was a licensed agent. Hey, you can start a company. I said, that’s a good idea. So I thought this over, sat on it for months, and six months and eight months. Then after a year, I took the leap of faith and started my own company. And it didn’t go anywhere in the first 18 months, you know, almost ran out of my last saving on the 18th month before I got my first contract for $50,000. That’s when it took off. And from the first $50,000 fee job we are a $50 million company today. And I work like a dog, doing night work, doing day work, and myself the production guy one day, you know, my wife doing the accounting and billing and all that stuff. Making calls to clients, small enterprise and all that. So it took a long time. And that was a great time to really understand what business is. Accountants came along the way, lawyers, and you gotta know. Went to a couple of business training schools, three day classes, two day, whatever. I took a lot of those classes, and that opened my business with regard to the world of business. ‘Cause nobody in the family had anything to do with business. Science, engineering, or maths or doctors, engineer, lawyer, those were the three professions, in fact. So nothing else, no concept of a businessman.

Denzil Mohammed: I mean, that’s what I was about to say. There’s so many programs available now for budding entrepreneurs, mentorship programs, incubators, all sorts of things. And 30 years ago, we didn’t have those things. So it’s quite remarkable that you were able to bootstrap and, without having a safety net, very importantly, you’ve imbued your company with particular values. And I know that you are well aware of how aware young people are today of corporate responsibility. Can you talk about that and why those values are important?

Abul Islam: They want to have the companies to have values, societal values, transparency in internal dealings too. That is very crucial for you building an agile organization, especially in our age where DEI [diversity, equity and inclusion] is also so important. You know, it was not 20 years ago. I mean, DEI is, should be real. DEI was always there for these big corporations to Wall Street. They had somebody from our background, ethnicity, color or whatever, put in a nice place, but he or she didn’t have the real power. What the industry is asking for now, that if you have anybody, any ethnic class, gender protected and all that, if you, he, or she’s got the power, it better be real power in the organization. Just don’t put your face on that, say we are in compliance with all minority requirements. That was the product I saw, but not anymore. Many companies, including private Wall Street companies, are serious about giving opportunities to the qualified person across the board, across the DEI spectrum, diversity, equity and inclusion. So this is real, this is good. This is happening in my lifetime, after 30 years in business. It was not there.

Denzil Mohammed: And I do recognize that you’re very intentionally coming up with a new mission narrative for your organization. And this I imagine is a huge part of that.

Abul Islam: Absolutely. So I have it, a book, you can have it in our website too. It’s called AI Engineers. As you can see, it’s called Our Agile Journey and in the second page of the book it says, and this is based on my own experience working with government agencies, that most organizations are rigid machines, triangle or hierarchical silos, and all that. What we want to be is an agile organization where the we, people-centric culture … agile is people-centric, rapid decision-making, collaborative team-oriented environment. And we are rather a nucleus here and all the teams are working. This concept took me, this book is three years old and every employee has this book now. And we question them. We ask them, well, are we in compliance with this book? We must practice agility because we live in a very uncertain and unpredictable world. When you can predict what is gonna happen tomorrow, you can have a process, manual, procedures, which is all good. So much of our world was, you know, last 50 years of industrial, economic, huge development that we made everywhere, government, private and all that, was predictable, that we can predict this, we can predict the outcomes. Therefore, a structured organization tends itself to make sense. When our world is totally changing and become more unpredictable, more destructive, all of the factors, including new technology, you simply can’t use that rigid structure, especially in an organization where people work with their intellect, engineering talent, experience and all that. So the agile practice is a logical conclusion for the successful engineering firm of the future.

Denzil Mohammed: I love that you’re holding yourself accountable.

Abul Islam: Yes, absolutely.

Denzil Mohammed: I wanna get into one particular area that’s really of interest to me and I’m sure to you too. So I’ve counted at least 23 job openings on your company’s web site. We know that there’s a shortage of American students in STEM and for international students, foreign students who come to the U.S. tend to dominate the STEM areas. So we often have to rely on that foreign talent. And, of course, you know that foreign talent brings diversity, which in and of itself has its own richness. But what have you been doing or seeing when it comes to addressing this issue of education broadly, but also students in STEM?

Abul Islam: It’s the need for businesses, just not our business, it’s across the board, any sizes, that there is a huge crisis of skilled workforce. When we found what was useful was the H-1B process. So historically we had used the H-1B process very successfully, going to the campuses with the master’s program, or even a bachelor’s program. They get a year or two for working legally after from their graduate school, have an engineering four year or five, six year degree in masters. And then they can work for us for another three to six, sometimes nine years on the H-1B. That’s a great move for companies like us because we have a hard time attracting and recruiting the best and the brightest. We definitely need this foreign talent to come to the United States, immigrants, especially with the four-year engineering or technical degree program. And they become eligible to work for us for three years with a certain minimum cap of salary that the federal … actually we pay more than that. Right now the market is whatever the … even the minimum salary of an entry level engineer [Inaudible]. The U.S. government says, pay 58. We pay at least 10, 15 percent over that just because of the market dynamics. Otherwise we’ll not have the talent. That is such a good program because not too many people in the 1980s, since the ’80s, have gone to engineering school, ’80s, ’90s. They have gone to finance schools and this and that. So we don’t have the number of engineers, four year degree engineers, in many disciplines like we had in the 1980s or ’70s.We were self-sufficient, no longer self-sufficient. So we need a lot of engineers. And H-1B program is a good program for any business, I think, especially as it has proven we have a history of successfully using the H-1B program who have eventually become, gotten green card has many of them, and became part of the American experience for them as well. They’ve gotten better jobs and families situated better. They own property in five … many of the people that I hired, on the fifth year they bought a house, on the 10th year they had the American life, you know, two, three cars, their kids are going to better schools and they’re paying taxes. So, it’s the win-win situation for all.

Denzil Mohammed: Attracting foreign talent does nothing but good for our country. But I know you said that education was really important in your family growing up. And I know it’s important to you now, and you do some work with school districts and community colleges. Can you describe some of the things that you’ve been doing and what kind of impact they’ve had?

Abul Islam: Connecticut Business and Industrial Association has done a lot of work in alliance with all sizes of businesses, small, large, medium size, to go into our urban schools and kind of guide them, inspire them, help them. So I’ve been a founding member of the Academy of Engineering in Hartford high schools, in 2009. And we had firsthand experience with the teachers and the kids, but the majority of the kids need some kind of remedial program, support, guidance, inspiration because of the socioeconomic condition in many of the urban areas. So that inspired me a lot to, under the National Academy Foundation, Stamford, I started the program. And all of us businesses, from Pratt and Whitney, from AI Engineers, from Eversource, they sat on the board of directors and really went into selected high schools, you know, at the 10th, 11th, at 12th grade, and saying, how could we help? How could we help to align them with the employers, whether they’re manufacturing employers, engineering employers, any employers, and how could the community colleges also help? ‘Cause many of them has socioeconomic issues, also a single parent, not enough guidance within the neighborhood or the family, figures that they can look up to except for the school. So if you inspire them, [inaudible] they go into a group of 30, 40 kids graduating and talk about what we do as engineers or the guy from Pratt & Whitney, or the lady from another company saying that we are doing these interesting things, or would you like to be an engineer? And if you like to be an engineer or a scientist, you have to do this, this, that you have all these. They built all these computer models. Some of them went to Nepal. We funded that. We provided scholarships in the company too. And many of these … actually AI has since 2009 have two candidates that we tracked from that high school that we recruited them. We would just have them three-week internship while they were in the ninth grade, 10th grade, 11th grade. And then they came, went to community college and then we followed them, their progress. And then they went to the four year school and now two of them are working for seven years, and one of the senior engineers of AI, we got them from the academy program. So if the businesses do it in alliance with three nodes of a triangle: community college, high school and business. So if you draw a triangle, and if it works seamlessly information exchanges. I think this will be it, universally, a universal approach, that the role of the community college is very important for the entire industry, the engineering and all that. And the community colleges that are in close proximity or in the urban areas where the school systems are generally not as great as they are in the suburbs. Why don’t the businesses go and kind of give their time and attention because it indirectly helps them with regard to the workforce of the future.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s terrific. And this is private sector in action, right, and paying dividends. So you get the talent that you foster and you nurture. So finally America has given you a home and a successful business and what I would argue is a beautiful legacy. What are your thoughts about the United States as a home for entrepreneurial immigrants like yourself?

Abul Islam: It is the country that has given the maximum opportunity to immigrants historically. I think it’s a great place to start a business, especially for an immigrant, you know, follow the rules and procedures in the books, pay taxes, talk to people, come up with a new product and services, whatever you do, it is a place. There are other countries European countries, Australia, Canada, but nothing has the culture and the historical legacy as America has. If you have the desire to succeed, you have to be ready for it. And this is the country that’ll make it happen for you. So I have, I’m very happy about United States and being a citizen of this country.

Denzil Mohammed: Incredible. Abul Islam, founder, and president and CEO of AI Engineers, thank you for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. This was a really interesting conversation.

Abul Islam: Thank you, Denzil. Thank you for your time.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contributions produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for today’s powerful story of immigrant entrepreneurship. Remember, you can subscribe to JobMakers on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please give us some stars. I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 47: Roger Magalhaes

JobMakers podcast logo: Roger Magalhaes goes from truck driver to industry leaderBrazilian American entrepreneur Roger Magalhaes was working as a truck driver when he founded his window treatment company. Now he’s so successful that’s he’s founded a consultancy firm that trains his competitors. Tune in to learn how personal experience led him to the controversial opinion that immigrants must Americanize to succeed. You can also watch a video sharing more of his story here.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed. Welcome to JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: If you move to, say, France; do you think you’ll be perceived as French? When you move to the United States, you become an American, part of that country that, for hundreds of years, has attracted people from a staggering array of nations, creating something diverse, entrepreneurial, cost-changing and beautiful. And what’s the main reason that people come here? Opportunity. For Roger Magalhaes, immigrant from Brazil and founder of Shades In Place, a window treatment installation firm and a trading and consulting firm in Franklin, Massachusetts, he didn’t even know just how much opportunity there was in the United States to advance and progress. So when the opportunity to start installing shades as a business occurred, he seized on it. Today, he is one of the most influential leaders in his field, which doesn’t even have a school where you can learn the trade! This business he built from the ground up and never missed an opportunity to learn and improve. Today, he’s teaching his competitors. By the way, Roger Magalhaes is also the 2022 Barry M. Portnoy Immigrant Entrepreneur Awardee for Business Growth, an annual honor bestowed by The Immigrant Learning Center, co-producer of this podcast. Check him out on YouTube. Roger now is an American citizen. He believes immigrants must, quote, “Americanize” in order to fulfill their potential and have the biggest impact. A debatable view for sure, but one rooted in his own experience and success. As you’ll hear more about in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Roger Magalhaes, founder of Shades In Place, Trading Up Consulting. Welcome to the JobMakers podcast! How are you?

Roger Magalhaes: Doing good, man! Thanks so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

Denzil Mohammed: Tell us what’s your business.

Roger Magalhaes: My 30-second elevator pitch is that I’m a shady business, basically. So I started out just installing window treatments for retailers and eventually I started selling them as well. 15 years later, I developed my techniques and know-how and now I also teach how to install the best way and how to form new installments because we don’t have it in the industry.

Denzil Mohammed: So you basically almost created a virtual textbook for how to do this shades installation, right?

Roger Magalhaes: Basically, yes. And my friends say now I teach my competition how to be me.

Denzil Mohammed: Oh, that’s hilarious. So, I know you stumbled into this kind of business. Why do you find this interesting or something that you really want to develop?

Roger Magalhaes: What happened was, I bought my house and I rehabbed over the weekends after my job and I really liked the hands-on and construction and breaking things apart and putting them back together. And I thought, “Wow, I’d really like to develop more into this but there’s no job that’s going to go in and out on the same days.” So if I start a company to replace flooring or paint walls or whatever activity you need to do in a house, it’s not going to be done in one day. So, I didn’t want to leave my job as a truck driver to start something. I would’ve come to Mrs. Jones and said, “Mrs. Jones, I started the job today but you’ve gotta be without flooring until Thursday, which is my next day off, so I can come and finish.” It didn’t make sense to do anything like that, something that gets me in and out of a house and I can’t have it done in a day so I’ll have to come back because I didn’t finish on the same day. I can fill my days off between driving trucks and that’s where I started out. But you don’t know what you don’t know, right?

Denzil Mohammed: Right. And now you’re doing even better.

Roger Magalhaes: Yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: Your story with entrepreneurship began all the way back in Brazil, when you were born, right?

Roger Magalhaes: Pretty much, yeah. As I said, I’m a workaholic. Since early days, I like to keep doing things, I don’t like just to be sitting around. And then, let’s call it my first business, at age six. I had two twin cousins that I really loved and they were probably four, five years older than me. They were my role models when I was a little kid. And they liked to fix bicycles. They were always doing something. At one point, they shined shoeboxes. They were going around on the streets and doing it. And I said, “Can you have one of your friends build me a shoe-shine box so I can go around and ask the neighbors here?” And he said, “Yeah, sure. Six years old, what the heck is he going to do with that?” So one of his friends built the shine-shoe box and gave it to me and I would go around to the neighbors and ask them. But obviously, it was different because the husbands were not home. It was just the wives. They would give me just the shoes and say, “Here.” I really like when you knock on a shoebox and it switches legs so you could do it. But I couldn’t do it that way because there was nobody wearing the shoes at that time! But in the end, I made some money and I liked it. It was really my first entrepreneur thing.

Denzil Mohammed: When you moved to the U.S., it was around 2000, right?

Roger Magalhaes: Correct.

Denzil Mohammed: And did you have the intention of thinking that you were going to be able to start a business in the U.S. at the time?

Roger Magalhaes: No. My plan was more or less learning English, that was one of the main reasons. And because we had a strong economy, I said, “Maybe I’ll work a few years here, save up some money and then I’ll go back to Brazil eventually and open a business there.” Because I always wanted to have a business somehow. I’d capitalize and go back and open some sort of business. And then the pandemic came and this might be the opportunity to close it. Because my mind was like, “Who the heck is going to buy shades in the middle of a pandemic?” Shades should be at the bottom of the list in priority. And it ended up being exactly the opposite because everybody was home, nobody was sick. Everybody was just trapped inside the house. We need to spend the energy we have here. We’re not traveling. People were working from home so income was coming and everybody started remodeling homes and changing rooms into offices and the next thing you know, we’re busy as we’ve ever been. At the same time, I was teaching already, conventions and seminars and that got really intensified because nobody went to the real conventions, because everybody was home, “Let’s do a live! Let’s do a seminar! Let’s do a webinar!” And then I start getting way more requests to share knowledge and, “Why do you think this is happening?”, “What can we do for …” And becoming more influential in the industry. And then, in September of 2020, driving to a job in the Berkshires, I was thinking, “I really built this from blood, sweat and tears. I don’t want to just give it up.” And one training app came on and I said, “Wow! I could actually just transition from hands-on work and more physical, into training new people and passing on the knowledge and keeping my connections.’ It was really how the whole thing started with training app. And at the same time, because we were so busy with Shades In Place I said, “I cannot just close it.” I originally thought, “I guess I’m just going to train them and bring people in so I can be the lead on both companies. I can have people working for me, at the same time I can test chronology to all the people as well.” And that’s really where we are right now.

Denzil Mohammed: And so your showroom became like a workroom.

Roger Magalhaes: Yeah. We don’t have a showroom anymore, we’re going to turn the showroom into a school facility so I can develop different types of windows, different applications so I can shoot classes and shoot videos and explain how things should be done and what is the difficulty you’re going to see with each window, what kind of products you can use for certain applications and that became the scoop.

Denzil Mohammed: And so your reputation goes well beyond Massachusetts and you’re requested in several states across the country all the way down to Florida. Take us back to when you first moved here. And coming from Brazil, the economy has started to do better but it must’ve been a real change for you.

Roger Magalhaes: Well, definitely. First, the weather. The language barrier, being away from family. I only have one cousin here but still, it’s not the whole family. Culture, the way people do things and even England is a little more conservative that the rest of the country for the most part. So, all of those things I had to adjust. And obviously, it takes time and it was a big learning curve.

Denzil Mohammed: And you mentioned earlier that you’re training your competition, which I find so interesting. You have found very creative ways to give back and to promote the success of other entrepreneurs. Can you describe some of those initiatives that you have and what impact you had?

Roger Magalhaes: Right. I know a lot of people who won’t share anything because they are so afraid that if they share what they know, they’re going to be displaced, somebody else’s going to take over. And I truly believe it is totally the opposite. The more you share, the more people rely on you because they really see you as a trusted resource. So I’m not the least afraid of losing work to the competition. As a matter of fact, I think it is great because the competition can see how you do. You can improve the whole experience for everyone overall. So in 2014, I started a Facebook group called “Free Speech Window Covering Pros” for that reason. Just to share knowledge, because that’s pretty much how I learned the business. There’s no school for what we do. So you just learn by shadowing someone, by going to training, by going to seminars, making a friend so you can body up and ask questions. And that was really how I learned. It became a really great resource and we have over 1000 members now and it pays off so hugely. And it’s unbelievable.

Denzil Mohammed: Wow, that is incredible. One question for you, as you’re from Brazil, we’ve done research on Brazilians and their self-employment rates and Brazilians have the highest rates of self-employment of entrepreneurship in the greater Boston area. I mean, that’s both incorporated and unincorporated businesses. Why do you think that is?

Roger Magalhaes: What I really think it is, first we’re very creative. We are creative because we didn’t have the resources; because everything is so scarce, we just need to be creative to survive. That’s really survival mode. I’m taking back in Brazil. And Then when we get here and we see the opportunities here and we see that it’s so above here that pretty much, there’s market for everything. And these people start saying, “Well, you know what? I already have a second chance just to be here, let me use my knowledge or my instance and move forward.” And I think that’s what it is! We just see the opportunities that we didn’t see back home. And we just run with them.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s funny that you mention that because someone that you and I know, Jitka Borowick, who has a business called Cleangreen on the Cape, it was the same thing for her, especially coming from a communist country, the Czech Republic. And just seeing how much opportunity was here as did you, you were at those opportunities and it was the same thing with her and you all’ve expanded. Even during the pandemic, she opened a new business, Nové Yoga. You opened your consulting business. You went online, you were all over Zoom, you were training. I’ve seen videos all over the place, instructions and things like that. That’s the message we want to get out on this podcast, really.

Roger Magalhaes: I appreciate it.

Denzil Mohammed: And you come here and grab opportunities and create jobs!

Roger Magalhaes: I’m not special, I don’t have privileges or anything, it’s just hard work. But one thing that I really think is extremely important. Don’t try to run your life here the way you run your life in your country. So you come here, you need to learn the language, you need to get used to the customs, to the culture, the way people live here because you can live here for 50 years but you’re still an immigrant; you’re still a farmer. Even 50 years later, even as an American citizen, for the lack of a better word. A lot of people don’t see that. They want to do their way and that’s what I think people miss the opportunity to grow even bigger because I can tell from everything that I’ve done and all the success I have achieved, the first thing that comes to a lot of a lot of the comments from people say, ‘Roger, we really appreciate that you respect our culture, you respect the way things are, you’ve learned the language; you really do things the way they’re supposed to be done. And that’s why you’re successful. Because you’ve got the respect from your home community, you’ve got respect from the Americans because they saw you respect the country.’

Denzil Mohammed: I feel as if there’s a subtle dig at other immigrants in what you’re saying that perhaps some don’t acclimatize and therefore that holds them back.

Roger Magalhaes: I don’t know exactly what it is or even between Brazilians; some Brazilians are very successful between the community. But they don’t expand wider because they feel like they want to stay within their own community. And I think this is wrong. You really need to cater to everyone and open to more cultures and all of that but you need to be, for lack of a better word, Americanized. Your culture comes second. The American culture’s always going to come first. You are in that game. You are in that playing view. You put your Brazilian zest in it or whatever culture you have and it should not be the primary culture. And that’s what some people miss the point.

Denzil Mohammed: You do the running mare here, not the soundbar, right?

Roger Magalhaes: Exactly! We can play a couple suppers between the whole night but it shouldn’t be the silver night.

Denzil Mohammed: And so finally, you’ve been given tremendous opportunity and you’ve run with it. You’ve been successful and led other people to be successful. How do you feel about the country that took you in and allowed you to thrive in this way, the United States?

Roger Magalhaes: It is very ironic because when I was in Brazil, I never planned to be in the U.S. and then eventually I came and I saw the opportunities and I saw that pretty much whatever you do here, there’s a market for it and people respect you. They may not agree with you but they still respect your point of view and the opportunities are just here. Regardless of what you want to do, there’s always a market for it. And I respect that. There is a reason why the U.S. is the biggest market on the planet. Because the opportunities are just incredible. I cannot be more ten-for-nil. As a matter of fact, I’m an American citizen, so that may say that I really enjoy and appreciate this country.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s really nicely said. Roger Magalhaes, founder of Shades In Place and Trading Up Consulting, thank you for joining us on JobMakers and sharing your story.

Roger Magalhaes: I really appreciate the opportunity.

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Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us on this week’s story about immigrant entrepreneurship and remember, you can subscribe to JobMakers on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And please, give us some stars. I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 46: Avak Kahvejian

JobMakers podcast logo: Avak Kahvejian on how immigrants drive innovationCanadian American Avak Kahvejian has founded a dozen life science companies and counting through his work as a partner at Flagship Pioneering. In addition to incubating bioscience companies, Kahvejian is very active in supporting Armenian and immigrant communities. Tune in to learn how he sees immigrants as a vital component of the United States’ status as a powerhouse. You can also watch a video sharing more of his story here.

Episode 45: Celina Miranda

JobMakers podcast logo: Dr. Celina Miranda on immigrant entrepreneurs and community upliftCelina Miranda is the executive director of the Hyde Square Task Force in Jamaica Plain’s Latin Quarter, so she has seen firsthand how immigrant entrepreneurs contribute to sustaining their neighborhoods and people economically, philanthropically, and socially. Her career spent connecting underserved communities with resources has given her insight into how to support and empower diverse, foreign-born business owners. Listen to learn how she believes the success of immigrant entrepreneurs in the Latin Quarter could be replicated across the United States.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: How did Jamaica Plain, a neighborhood of Boston, Massachusetts, go from being one of the most crime-ridden and dangerous to one of the safest and most desired? Because immigrant entrepreneurs and others in the community said enough and did something about it. And this started with the youth. It is one of the many ways immigrant business owners give back to their new homeland. They create jobs, mentor, sponsor and lead. For Dr. Celina Miranda, executive director of the Hyde Square Task Force in Jamaica Plain’s Latin Quarter (today one of the most diverse neighborhoods in Massachusetts), she knows keeping the kids at school educated and firm in their cultural identity and welcoming to others is crucial to maintaining the area’s renewed stature. And she knows how much of their immigrant business owners from countries as diverse as Ethiopia, the Dominican Republic, Guatemala are working to make this happen. This week, we look at how immigrant entrepreneurs contribute in another way, sustaining their neighborhoods and people economically, philanthropically, socially and frankly, humanly. Dr. Miranda hopes the example of Jamaica Plain’s Latin Quarter and the role of its business owners will be replicated in communities across the U.S. to help overcome a heightened divisiveness. As you’ll learn now on JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Dr. Celina Miranda, executive director of the Hyde Square Task Force in the Jamaica Plain neighborhood of Boston. Welcome to JobMakers. How are you?

Dr. Celina Miranda: Good, how are you? Thank you for having me.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m doing very well. So you are the director of the Hyde Square Task Force in Jamaica Plain, which seeks to build up the community, essentially; from the youth all the way up. And one of your biggest accomplishments in recent history has been to designate the area, the Latin Quarter of Boston. Give us the story of the Latin Quarter.

Dr. Celina Miranda: Sure. So we became known as the Latin Quarter back in 2016 when Boston City council actually voted unanimously to identify this particular segment or area in the neighborhood of Jamaica Plain as Boston’s Latin Quarter. But the impetus really began by our young people wanting to have an area that they’ve come to love over many, many years, be recognized for the Latinx contributions that have been made over decades. And so that’s where it started. And then in 2018, we became recognized as a Massachusetts Cultural District. So we are one of 40 plus cultural districts in the state and recognized as the Latin Quarter. And it really does allow us to uplift the contributions that the Latinx immigrant community has been making to this particular neighborhood and really Boston overall since about the 1960s.

Denzil Mohammed: Wow, since the 1960s. So delve into that a little bit with me, what has been the impact of immigrants in your Quarter of Jamaica Plain?

Dr. Celina Miranda: Sure. So since the 1960s, there have been waves of folks that have arrived here originally from Cuba, the Puerto Rico and, most recently, the Dominican Republic; but we’ve also had groups and pockets of Central American and South American immigrants that have made this particular corner of Boston their home. Over the years, that has changed and definitely, right now we have, predominantly, a Dominican population that lives in this area. And I think over time, over the decades, that Latinx immigrants have been coming here, this has developed into a hub of Latinx culture. And what I mean by that, you can find businesses here that are Latinx owned or run and you can smell the smells of the Dominican Republic. You’ll have them here. Pastries from the Dominican Republic are here. The music, et cetera. So really, it’s a hub for Latin culture and an opportunity to affirm and continue to uplift the contributions that Latinx immigrants have made over many, many, many years.

Denzil Mohammed: I have such good memories of having oxtail at El Oriental de Cuba and empanadas at this place across from the Doggie Daycare Tales. So these immigrant businesses, what impact have they had over the past decades? You mentioned the first wave from Cuba, then Puerto Rico. And just to be clear, Puerto Ricans aren’t immigrants, they’re American citizens.

Dr. Celina Miranda: Yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: And Dominicans, they’ve really shaped the identity of the neighborhood. Talk a little bit about the immigrant businesses in the Latin Quarter.

Dr. Celina Miranda: Yeah. So definitely, like I said, they really have shaped the identity of the neighborhood and have created what we now call the Latin Quarter. I think without their contribution, we wouldn’t have the vitality of the neighborhood that we do. And really, if I can take you back to the 1990s, this corner of Jamaica Plain was actually known as the cocaine capital of New England. So there was a lot of drugs, drug trafficking here and violence in the neighborhood. And really it’s the contributions, I think, of businesses and residents that came together, that began to transform the neighborhood into what it is today. And so, Latinx’s own businesses or run businesses have been here for a very long time. And some of them, very large ones, including El Mundo which was here. They were head-quartered here until very recently. And we also had a Hi Lo grocery store that was here for many, many, many, many years where folks would trek from all over Boston to come here and do their grocery shopping. So they have been a presence here in the neighborhood for such a long time and added to the bustling feel of the neighborhood and the footprint that we have and contributed to it being the district that it is today.

Denzil Mohammed: I think of the entrepreneurial spirit of immigrants. Immigrants are twice as likely to start a business. For many of them, they may not have a choice but to get into their own business because their credentials don’t transfer. And the legacy of entrepreneurship in Jamaica Plain and particularly the Latin Quarter is really fascinating to me. Several years ago, at our Immigrant Entrepreneur Awards, we honored Damaris Pimentel who runs Ultra Beauty Salon in Jamaica Plain store from where I live on South Huntington Ave. And her story of entrepreneurship began with her father, who moved here from the Dominican Republic, and started the ment market, which still exists today. And now she has her own gleaming, beautiful, bright business and is fostering entrepreneurship in the young people who work with her. Talk a little bit about the economic impact up until today, because we’ve really seen how the businesses have flourished over time and become more elegant and more diverse. Doggy Daycare, for instance. What’s been the economic impact over the years?

Dr. Celina Miranda: Yeah. As of 2019, I believe approximately half of the 104 businesses along Center Street in the Latin Quarter are Latinx owned and/or managed. So, definitely, I think they have been a critical component of the financial vitality of this corner of Boston but even in beyond. Because we have, for instance, a barbershop owner just down a couple of buildings from where we are. And this is where his business is. This is where he does his work and mind you, he doesn’t live here and we can talk about why he can’t afford to have a house here. But that might be another podcast. But really the reality is that they continue to contribute to the energy and to the financial stability of this particular area. And like you said, I think we have seen transformation. We have seen changes over the years that a different, much more racially and ethnically diverse population are visiting those businesses. So the Doggy Daycare, it’s not just for your Dominican dog owner, it’s for anyone who has a dog and needs somebody to take care of their dog during the day. So definitely, that is the case. So they’ve been crucial, I think, not only for the wellbeing of those particular families, but also for others who are able to work at these businesses, et cetera.

Denzil Mohammed: They’re creating local jobs!

Dr. Celina Miranda: Correct.

Denzil Mohammed: At all levels for all people. And I think, I go back to Tales, the Doggie Daycare that we’re talking about, and I know that the owner, Jesse Fise, also from Dominican Republic, she hires people who come out of prison in order for them to start a stable life again. So they’re creating opportunities for a wide variety of people. But it does beg one question for a lot of Americans who wonder why immigrants tend to congregate with other immigrants from their home countries. I mean, this is something we’ve seen throughout U.S. history: Chinatowns, Koreatowns and in Lowell, you have a Cambodiatown. But explain to U.S. born people why immigrants move to places where the immigrants from their home countries already are. From the uneducated mind, it might seem to inhibit integration. Research says no.

Dr. Celina Miranda: Yeah. So, obviously one argument is that when immigrants first enter into the country, they will go where others are, because that’s where they can find information on jobs, right? “Where can I get a job?” Housing, in terms of, “Where’s the best place for me to live? Where can I afford to live?”, and other resources. So it’s a source of information that is so key, right? That’s where you can go and find the information. And importantly, you can find the information in a language that you understand, that you recognize, which makes the transition into the country easier. For some, the enclave can be helpful but it will only get you so much not because it’s an ethnic enclave. I think I wanna make sure that that’s clear. It’s not because it’s wrong to be with your group, but it’s more because you have redundancy in networks. I think basic social capital theory tells you that you wanna have diverse networks that can connect you to resources that you otherwise wouldn’t have connections to, right? So and there’s been social programs that have tried to do some around this and making sure that you bring people together that don’t have redundancy in those networks so that they can help one another and say, “Oh, by the way, have you looked into that program over there that’s offering scholarships for kids that are interested in X?” And so therefore you go there but you wouldn’t know if you’re just to the same people who have the same information you do. So from that perspective, I think, definitely, it’s not just for immigrant groups. I think it’s more generally, right? We all benefit from having diverse networks so that we can access new information, new resources.

Denzil Mohammed: Many people in the U.S. don’t know what it’s like to move to another country. The incredible cultural differences, language barriers, laws and regulations, there are so many things that are different. So the bulk of your work at the Hyde Square Task Force is focused on the youth, many of them, of course, immigrants as well. So when it comes to their education and wellbeing, what are you doing to ensure that they thrive? And why was there need for this task force to begin with?

Dr. Celina Miranda: Yeah, so we started 30 years ago. In part was in response to what I said in terms of the 1990s and the state of the neighborhood. Having at that time being called the cocaine capital of New England, and also recognizing that it was a neighborhood that was not being heard by elected officials, that was not being seen in the way that we wanted to be seen. So that’s how we started. We started by a group of neighbors who were dissatisfied and wanted to make a difference. Very early on, however, we recognized that young people needed to be at the center of that transformation. So we have been focused on working with young people to create positive change in our community since the very beginning of our organization. And we continue to be very invested in that. Our strategies have changed over the years and now, we focus on Afro and arts and culture as a vehicle by which we engage young people in the out of school time. However, as a youth development organization, a creative youth development organization, we are invested in making sure that our young young people are successful in graduating high school and also begin planning for their future. And we help them with that transition. So we make sure that they stay on track to graduate high school, begin planning for post-secondary education or training, whatever that may be. And then we also do college coaching because most of the students that we work with are first in their families to go to college. And so they need the added support, the added guidance, so that they’re able to navigate higher-ed institutions as successfully as possible so that they can complete their studies.

Denzil Mohammed: You’re building up social responsibility, you’re bringing up leadership qualities, obviously academics and creativity. What has been the role of immigrant entrepreneurs, specifically, in this work?

Dr. Celina Miranda: Damaris, you named her earlier. She was actually a board member and was on our board for many, many, many years. So in that sense, it’s giving back. She was giving back and serving as a role model for our young people. So that’s one very micro example of how they have contributed. But now, I think, when you step back a bit, they continue to be so critical again, as role models for our young people. But also as a great resource, they continue to help us do the arts and cultural work that we’re doing and that they partner with us all the time as we do our cultural events. I haven’t talked about that aspect of our work is that in addition to working directly with young people, we are also the managing partner of the cultural district of the Latin Quarter. And so through that work, we have a series of annual events that we bring to the neighborhood and business owners are a big part of that. They’re also partners in our thinking, as we continue to think of what the Latin Quarter can be and the resources that the Latin Quarter needs, they are key partners in creating that vision for the Latin Quarter.

Denzil Mohammed: So this is their way of giving back. And they’re giving back in many different ways, not just creating jobs, but sponsoring events, being role models, fostering a more success-minded spirit in young people. I think that’s just absolutely terrific. And the kind of relationships that you’ve been able to foster over the years toward this end is just absolutely extraordinary. Finally, I did a lot of digging into the Latin Quarter because it’s just fascinating. And one word that emerged a lot when talking about the Latin Quarter is “coexistence.” What example can the Latin Quarter’s experience offer other parts of the country, not just immigrant areas, their refugees and immigrants are settling in areas that were previously not settled by immigrants and refugees. What is the Latin Quarter’s experience regarding coexistence?

Dr. Celina Miranda: Yeah, I was reflecting a lot on this concept and thinking about the fact that carving out places or public spaces in particular where people from varying backgrounds can come together in a safe way, I think is essential to strengthening the fabric of any city, but really the fabric of our country. I think divisiveness has been so much that I think where we have been, this constant pitting each other against one another. And I think that doesn’t bode well for anyone. And so I really do think that the opportunity to create spaces where it is safe to come together, it is safe to “coexist,” to use the word. These spaces need to be open and inclusive for all people. So when we think about the Latin Quarter, I hope that your listeners take away that the Latin Quarter is not just for the Dominican immigrant. It is not just for the Cuban immigrant. It really is about a space where we welcome and we want people to come and experience the Afro Latin traditions and culture and get to know it in a way that is respectful, of course, I always think about that. It’s important to give respect to groups. Honestly, here in our neighborhood, the newcomer is your younger folks who are moving to the area, many of them are not from Boston. They’re coming from other parts of the country. And most of them are not Latinx. And so, really thinking about how do you create an opportunity for them to come and learn about the history of the neighborhood and become part of the fabric of the neighborhood in many ways, without taking away its history, without erasing what it has been. And I think that is important. And I think it should be replicated everywhere that we go. Everywhere that we go, I think there should be a Latin Quarter in my opinion, but that’s just me.

Denzil Mohammed: A welcoming space for everyone to be able to participate and learn and thrive. Right?

Dr. Celina Miranda: Yes. And like I said, respectfully of one another.

Denzil Mohammed: Hear, hear! Dr. Miranda, thank you so much for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. We really appreciate your work with the Hyde Square Task Force and what you continue to do for Jamaica Plain and beyond. Thank you.

Dr. Celina Miranda: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for today’s insightful conversation on how immigrant entrepreneurs are uplifting entire communities with their work in philanthropy. If you know any outstanding immigrant entrepreneurs we should talk to, email Denzil, that’s D E N Z I L I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 44: Theresa Park

JobMakers podcast logo: Theresa Park on how immigrants revitalize U.S. citiesAs a Korean American immigrant and the deputy director and senior executive vice president at MassDevelopment, Theresa Park knows firsthand how immigrant entrepreneurs enrich their new homelands. Through MassDevelopment, she offers financing and real estate solutions that help foreign-born business owners build organizations that strengthen their communities. Tune in to learn her strategies for celebrating and empowering immigrant entrepreneurs.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed. And this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Immigrants have always been economic drivers and revitalizers. Just look at Lowell, Massachusetts or Lawrence, Massachusetts or any of the gateway cities in your state. Immigrants tend to move into areas that are cheap. Namely, places in economic decline. Then they open up shops and businesses, bring in goods and services and gradually revitalize these once downtrodden areas. For Theresa Park, deputy director and senior executive vice president at Mass Development, a group that offers financing and real estate solutions to drive economic growth across Massachusetts, she’s seen this up close and she’s lived it. An immigrant from Korea who moved to Lawrence, she saw firsthand how immigrants built their lives from the ground up and in so doing, economic and cultural vibrancy to their new home cities. And when she went on to work for cities like Lowell and Lawrence, she herself was the one to reach out to immigrant owned businesses, nurture their growth and see their broad impact. Theresa talks us through her experience with immigrant business owners, how she developed their trust, how she celebrates them and the many ways they enrich their new homeland in this week’s Jobmakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Theresa Park, deputy director and senior executive vice president of MassDevelopment, welcome to the JobMakers podcast. How are you?

Theresa Park: I’m very well. And thank you for having me. I’m thrilled to be here today.

Denzil Mohammed: So tell us a little bit about the work you currently do.

Theresa Park: So I’m now with a state agency. The bulk of my background is really in local government working in planning and development, economic development field. Last year I accepted a position with Mass Development. And Mass Development is the state’s financing agency as well as its land bank. And so we get involved in a lot of development-related projects, primarily from the financing side, but we also provide real estate technical assistance as well as offering grants and other programs through the state’s, one-stop process; the application process, for which is currently open. And it’s a really good way to tap into other programs available through the state.

Denzil Mohammed: And how does immigration figure into your work? When we see that one in seven Massachusetts residents is foreign-born, that they’re twice as likely to start a business, that they’ve been, traditionally, engines of economic growth in downtrodden parts of the country. And of course we have Kendall Square, for instance.

Theresa Park: Which is why we have programs that support business growth, we have programs that support gateway cities, we have programs that support developers so that we could increase the housing that is in such great demand in the commonwealth. So we have a pretty good toolkit of programs and services that could be brought to bear. Now, we just want to make sure, whether it is from the level of outreach we do, the engagement that we do, the people who can take advantage of those programs feel like we can be a partner to them. And so to that extent, the communications work that we’re doing, we want to make sure that whether it is a business started by immigrants, whether it is in communities where there may be a lot of immigrants. I live in the city of Lowell, for example. Historically, they have been a gateway for a lot of immigrants, in the beginning, to work in the textile industry. But that flow continues as well. And I think that there are great opportunities in places like Lowell and Lawrence and Lynn and other gateway cities. And we want to make sure that we get the word out and we make sure that we can deliver in a way that is meaningful and that’s also very culturally confident.

Denzil Mohammed: That is excellent. And I know that this is personal to you as well because you have your own immigrant story, is that right?

Theresa Park: And so you’re making a commitment to this new way of life. From my parents’ perspective they worked hard for many, many years, so they can make sure that their kids get a good education and be successful. So I think that’s pretty typical of what other immigrant families experience. Some go on to start businesses and we see them succeed. I think the award dinner that you have every year recognizes the tremendous contributions that they have made, from a job standpoint, and the impact that they’ve had on neighborhoods as far as services.

Denzil Mohammed: That is really well said and I know this is directly from your experiences in cities like Lowell and Lawrence. Talk us through your experiences in these cities. What did you see with the immigrant business community? How did you foster their growth? What was the response like from the rest of the community?

Theresa Park: And we’re trying to make those connection points to say that, “Okay, this is what you had told us, this is what we can provide,” so we would make that connection. We had people on staff, or within the larger department, who could speak different languages. So we try to take advantage of that so that it’s not always just that we could only interact in one language. We wanted to make sure that we could communicate at different levels. And to that extent, we want to make sure that whenever we did everything from marketing, for example, or pulling together collateral that talks about the work that we do, we were multilingual about it. We always made sure that the representation was very broad and encompassing of all the different types of businesses, not just the high tech, but the neighborhood type ‘mom and pop’ type of businesses because they will eventually hire people, right? Even if it was just like one or two jobs. To me, that’s still meaningful, right? Because that one person has a family. And because of that job, now they’re able to do these other things that they may not have been able to do before.

Denzil Mohammed: You brought up the immigrant entrepreneur awards, which my organization, The Immigrant Learning Center, hosts every year, which is this year happening on March 8th. And I have to say that we have a special category called business growth for fast growing businesses that are employing lots of people. And three of those past winners were all Dominican American and all came from Lawrence. So the reputation of certain cities like Lawrence, they’re growing

Theresa Park: People don’t invest in places without the belief that there is opportunity there.

Denzil Mohammed: So how does being an immigrant, even though you arrived as such a young child … you’re not only foreign-born, but you also have a very global perspective having traveled around the world and continuing to do that. Do you think that that has given you a particular perspective in your work of planning and the development of cities?

Theresa Park: I would say the biggest life skill that I feel like I benefit from, because of that immigrant experience as well as the global travel, is problem solving. You could present the same problem in a lot of different places and you’re gonna get different kinds of answers or different types of solutions. And I feel like if you travel and if you have the immigrant experience, it’s almost like you expand the range of your thinking when you’re problem solving. Because you’re not just fixing a widget. You’re also thinking about it in, for me personally, a more complex way. And so solving for problem ‘X’, all of a sudden you have all these different ways of addressing it.

Denzil Mohammed: I remember a joke from Trevor Noah saying, “If you don’t like immigrants, then you’re not allowed to like immigrant food. So you just end up with a potato”.

Theresa Park: An immigrant you do some great things with that potato!

Denzil Mohammed: Of course! So many different things, but we really do, as people living in the United States, take for granted the flavor that we are given and offered every day in terms of food, in terms of holidays, in terms of cultures. Overall though, you’ve seen many different immigrant populations starting businesses in different places. Have you seen them integrate? Learning the language, or their children being successful and things like that?

Theresa Park: Yeah, I think some of that has to do with when they come to this country, right? There’s a level of acculturation that needs to occur. My parents came here when they were, I think, close to 40, maybe? I can’t recall exactly. But then they had to learn the language and gain full employment, and so on. So I think the challenges are very real. I think it could be eased. So like I had mentioned earlier, when I came to this country there weren’t a lot of Koreans. So we had to acculturate very quickly. I think that, at the same time, it could be a lonely experience for people, as well, where you don’t have your community. I think the level of acculturation changes with the generation. I think when the parents first come here, they’re so busy working. Whether that’s being working for somebody or working for themselves. And it’s really relying on the next generation to then more fully immerse, take advantage of the job opportunities that are out there, the educational opportunities that are out there. So I think immersion happens in a couple of different ways. I think if you come to a place where there is a ready community, that could help ease a transition. I think that is really important. Oftentimes you also find these cities and people who can be the connector to different kinds of programs and services, so they could get grounded more readily, which hopefully means that they could have more time to then attend the kids’ parent-teacher meetings or maybe even attend a community meeting. Or it could be helping the next generation of immigrants that may be coming through the door, helping them with the acculturation. But I think how quickly and how easily you can do that depends on how old you are when you come to this country, what kind of community is here to ease a transition. And I think just remembering that people are always just trying to do their best. And just always giving people the benefit of the doubt, because this is a really hateful rhetoric that’s come out. And it’s based on some really unfounded misinformation. And I just hope that people dig a little deeper, people be a little bit more open minded and just remember that we’re all part of the human race, right? And we really have more in common than not.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s beautifully said. And I think at the end of the day, we have to remember that the economic development of immigrants, through their businesses, helped the entire community. It doesn’t just help that one immigrant. It creates jobs, it creates more taxes, it creates a safer neighborhood, increased goods and services. We did some research on immigrant essential workers during the pandemic and where they were left out of the CARES Act. For instance, things that impeded their ability to help all of us recover. We could have recovered faster, we could have recovered in a more efficient way. If you were to close off this podcast interview with a message for the U.S., when it comes to the value of the immigrant entrepreneurship and recognizing that value, what do you think would be?

Theresa Park: I would say that if we were a formula, we’re a plus sign, not a minus sign from an immigrant standpoint. It’s not really a formula, but I would say that when we talk about immigration we’re talking about people who are coming to this country because of what’s been touted about all that’s good about this country. And I think it is really important that we continue to prize what we hold dear in this country’s ability to be the beacon of light for freedom, for democracy and for opportunity for everybody.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s very beautifully said, Theresa. Thank you so much. This was a wonderful interview. And thank you for sharing, as well, your own personal stories with us. Theresa Park, deputy director, and senior executive vice president of Mass Development, thank you for joining us on the JobMakers podcast.

Theresa Park: Thank you for having me, Denzil, so great to be here.

Denzil Mohammed: Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for today’s insightful conversation on how entrepreneurial immigrants are a rebound for cities in decline. If you know an outstanding immigrant entrepreneur we should talk to, email Denzil. That’s: I’m Denzil Mohammed, join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 43: Reinier Moquete

JobMakers podcast logo: Reinier Mouete on the audacity of immigrant entrepreneurshipReinier Moquete’s company CyberWarrior is a highly successful cybersecurity services provider, but Moquete’s greatest success might be in his extensive not-for-profit and philanthropic work supporting diverse young people in STEM fields. Moquete founded the Latino STEM Alliance, advises a committee on strengthening the pipeline to tech from Boston Public Schools and was appointed to the Massachusetts Governor’s STEM Advisory Council. Tune in to learn how Moquete credits his Dominican American grandmother and mother for his entrepreneurial spirit.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: What do Apple, McDonalds, Ford Motors, State Farm Insurance, and Home Depot all have in common? They were all founded by the children of immigrants. The children of immigrants have a high propensity to be as entrepreneurial as their parents and the United States has benefited from generations of immigrants like this. For Reinier Moquete, son of immigrants from the Dominican Republic and founder of CyberWarrior, a cybersecurity services provider in Boston, Massachusetts, he is continuing the entrepreneurial tradition started by his grandmother and mother who moved to the U.S. in search of a better life for their families. In fact, he says it is love of family that prompts immigrants to do what it takes to be successful in their new homeland, including starting a business. Reinier has gone further however and has given back to the country that gave his family a chance. He has launched nonprofits and foundations that seek to elevate disadvantaged communities, expose children to science, technology, engineering and math (or STEM), and uplift particularly Latinx people in the U.S., bringing them to the forefront of technology and leadership, as you will learn in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Reinier Moquete, Founder and CEO of CyberWarrior, welcome to JobMakers. How are you?

Reinier Moquete: I am good, thank you for having me.

Denzil Mohammed: So, tell us a little bit about your company, give us the 30-second pitch.

Reinier Moquete: CyberWarrior is a very unique company. We train people to be cyber security engineers and we put them to work. And so, we have developed a methodology that includes an online learning platform coupled with an 800-hour boot camp, live online. People are essentially exposed to the cybersecurity industry all the way from the basics of computer science, and we graduate them as well qualified security engineers, and then we help get them a job.

Denzil Mohammed: That is pretty incredible. And as I was talking with you earlier about the statistics around unemployment rates for cybersecurity this means your company is really important, not just now, but going forward in the future, right?

Reinier Moquete: Yeah. I mean, the reality is that cybersecurity has become a national security issue. It is not only about ensuring that people are just entering the industry, but that our water supply, our food supply, our energy supply is protected. You know, today’s conversation is particularly timely with all the [inaudible] happening across the world. And the reality is that when we think about protecting our country, there is going to be a cyber-attack before any missile ever gets launched. And that is just the world we live in. Beyond that, cybersecurity has become a tremendous economic development opportunity. You have a situation where there are 4 million open jobs, globally, 600,000 open jobs in the U.S. alone. It is a very unique opportunity for underserved communities to come into the industry and to grow and prosper. And, you know, it is pretty exciting and it is pretty rewarding when you have someone who maybe works in a kitchen or someone who comes from a totally non-technical background without any college education at all, and they are able to go through our program and walk out with an $80 or $90,000 a year job in only six months. It is a pretty amazing thing.

Denzil Mohammed: That is pretty incredible. And the numbers you shared, 600,000 open jobs in the U.S., that is kind of crazy. I want to get into your journey into entrepreneurship. Did you always want to be your own boss? Does it run in your family? You know, tell us how you ended up there.

Reinier Moquete: I filled the entrepreneurial box when I was a kid. My first entrepreneurial experience was inventing a video game for my friends. They had this little card video game when I was like seven or eight and I used to let kids in the neighborhood play for 25 cents in the Dominican Republic, so that was my first entrepreneurial experience. Nine years old I had another business where I was making bracelets and selling those in school. I used to go to the market and buy leather and cut it up. I guess I have always been an entrepreneur to one degree or another, and I always knew that it was a passion that I wanted to pursue.

Denzil Mohammed: And what qualities and skills do you think you had to draw on the most in order to launch your own business?

Reinier Moquete: Well, I think that the key thing to be an entrepreneur is tenacity and perseverance. Entrepreneurship is hard. There is this misconception that people go into entrepreneurship because they want to have more time or because they are going to want to work less. And it is actually exactly the opposite. Actually, you have to be a little bit crazy for you to want to go into business. Most businesses fail. Most people put their life savings into these businesses, and it takes years before you get that money back. So, you have to really be committed for the long term. For me, it was tenacity and perseverance and a conviction that I would rather play and lose than not play at all. In terms of hard skills, my entire career has been in the tech sector. And so, I brought that into my life as a business owner. But the reality is that most of what I know today I learned after I decided to jump, and I had to figure out how the parachute works after I was already in the air. And, you know, to a large degree, I find myself flat on the ground with my face dusted and bloody and all that, and again, the perseverance comes in because you just have to get back up.

Denzil Mohammed: I have never heard that analogy before about skydiving. But it is, you are taking a risk. You are literally jumping into the unknown in a sense. And I would venture to suggest that perhaps this is something that was in your genes because I like to say that the act of migrating is an entrepreneurial act. You take a risk, you leave everything you know behind. You are not sure if the outcome is going to be successful or not but you do it anyway. And your grandmother took that risk by leaving the Dominican Republic and coming to the U.S., is that right?

Reinier Moquete: Absolutely. And many of my family members as well. My mom, as well, who was a medical student in the Dominican Republic and only needed her theses to finish. Yet she decided that it was here where she was going to be better off with her kids. And I think it is a story of many of the immigrants that you see in the U.S. today. In fact, most of us, either as direct immigrants or kids of immigrants, that we see that desire, that audacity to succeed above all costs and the willingness to pay a very heavy price of leaving family behind in order for you to pursue that desire to do something different and/or to provide for your family back home. Right? It really takes a lot of courage. And I think in many ways, the story of America, the story of entrepreneurs and the story of immigrants are one in the same.

Denzil Mohammed: It is funny that you say that because from the time immigrants started to move here, whether they called themselves immigrants or not, they started businesses. Levi Straus up until Elon Musk today. It is the story of immigration, and it is the story of America. Reflect a little bit on that move of your grandmother and your mother and the other people you knew who moved from the Dominican Republic. What kind of qualities do you think it reflected on their part to take that risk?

Reinier Moquete: I think one of the key things that it requires is the love of family. It is rare that you don’t see an immigrant who doesn’t send money back home. And even those of us that may be first generation of Americans, we might have been born here, we still have that sense of commitment towards other family members who perhaps are not as stable financially. And so, you have that sense of unity, that sense of supporting one another. And I think that that’s the key driver for most immigrants. I think that beyond that, again, it is that burning desire of pursuing a passion. And, you know, you mentioned great entrepreneurs like Elon Musk. It is really that tenacity that says, well, I am not going to be able to achieve whatever it is that I want to achieve within my local community. And so, I am going to go out and I am going to venture, and I am going to pursue whatever it is I want to pursue at all costs. And I think that that’s the thing that has made America so successful. When you have all these people with that same audacity, that same desire to move forward.

Denzil Mohammed: I love the way you frame that in terms of love of family. And the story of many immigrant families can be very chopped up. You know, one parent moves first, they are separated from their kids and for years, they try to establish themselves. They send for one kid, two kids. The rest of the family comes up. It might take 10, 20 years for that to happen. And people often wonder, you know, why would families split up like this? But sometimes that’s the only way. More oftentimes than not. And you used the word audacity, which I find fascinating. I don’t think anyone else has used that word on this podcast to describe … it is audacious of them to think that they can do this and that it might actually work. What is your company, CyberWarrior, what does it ultimately empower individuals to do? What career and business opportunities are available for them after they, for instance, take your boot camp?

Reinier Moquete: We are training cybersecurity engineers. We are taking them into the doorway of an industry that is growing by leaps and bounds. Everything in our world today is dependent upon technology. Even if it’s a glass of water. That glass of water does not reach your lips unless it was touched by technology in some way, shape, or form. Look at the way we are communicating today. Look at the way the world has changed with our pandemic, right? So, cybersecurity is the knitting that keeps all this technology working properly. Otherwise, people would take it apart and use it for nefarious things. So, we put people at the doorway of this industry, and they you’re able to not only pursue careers as engineers, but they are also able to pursue careers as auditors, they are able to pursue careers in sales. The fact that you’re able to sell technology, the fact that you’re able to sell software, the fact that you’re able to sell consulting services, but in such a fast-growing industry. All these things are extremely lucrative. And so, if there is one thing that we are providing, it is opportunity, it is an opportunity people to gain access to economic freedom.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s not a job of the future, it’s the job of now. But all of this goes back to whether or not enough people choose to focus their studies on STEM. You are part of several initiatives in Massachusetts. Some of which you have founded yourself like the Latinos in STEM and the CyberWarrior foundation, as well as TechHire Boston that encourages young people to get into the STEM fields in a very hands-on way. So, tell us about at least one of them, let’s say the CyberWarrior foundation. What is the main message you want to get out to parents and kids?

Reinier Moquete: Well, with CyberWarrior Foundation, what we aim to do is to engage youth early in their lives into the world of cybersecurity. Cybersecurity is a career that you will never be bored. Why? Because you are learning something new every single day. And it also has this mystery to it. It has been romanticized in movies with the hackers and this and that. And the reality is that the things you see on TV are, to a large degree, very real. Those are the risks associated with a security breach. And at the same time, it also provides not only a very fun career path, but one that allows kids to use a lot of the things that they enjoy. Let’s say gaming, we use those concepts in real lives. So, I would say that for parents thinking about opportunities for their children, here is something that would allow them to play and have fun with while also making a good living.

Denzil Mohammed: Let’s put an intersectional lens on this, because you are also a part of the Latino Equity Fund out of the Boston Foundation. And a lot of the work you do with young people is to get families that are in disadvantaged communities or groups that are probably traditionally not occupiers of the STEM field to enter the STEM field. So why is that part of it important to you? And does it have anything to do with the fact that your heritage is based in the U.S. and the D.R.?

Reinier Moquete: Yeah, I mean, as an Afro-Latino I am certainly committed to creating equity and opportunity, and that’s why I decided to participate in the Latino Equity Fund. The Latino Equity Fund is the first and only Latino focused fund in Massachusetts. It was funded and seeded by The Boston Foundation and Hispanics in Philanthropy. It is a very unique partnership of Latino philanthropists and business leaders who essentially came together to say, “Hey, we need to find some solutions and we need to elevate this message,” right? So, the focus has been on raising money and over the last few years $700,000 in grants have been given out to Latino led and Latino serving organizations. Going into the next three years there is a focus on raising $10 million in order to strengthen the economic opportunities that are available to Latinos.

Denzil Mohammed: Have you already seen success with this, even if it is small successes?

Reinier Moquete: Absolutely. We not only have been able to support communities within the COVID pandemic, but even before COVID, we had been making key investments in early childhood education, health equity, workforce development. And so over the last five, six years, where we have been operating, we have been very deliberate in identifying the communities that need the most help, and then engaging subject matter experts from within those communities to ensure that whatever investments we are making are targeted towards those that need it most and where we are going to see the most impact. And so, there is a number of stories that we have seen of families that have been brought out of poverty, as well as, for example, in certain communities here in Massachusetts such as Chelsea, for example, has vaccination rates of 98, 99 percent. And those are the type of things where we look to invest.

Denzil Mohammed: Oh, wow. That is an incredible statistic about Chelsea. Finally, just bring it into the present day, given the legacy of your family. If you had to give America a message about the value of immigrant entrepreneurship to the U.S., you know, you’re training people, you’re not training immigrants, you are training everybody to protect the U.S., to protect all of the U.S. assets. Given how shrouded immigration is in politics and controversy, what would you say to America about the value of immigrant entrepreneurship to us?

Reinier Moquete: Yeah, I mean, I believe it was Nelson Mandela that said, “Everything is impossible until somebody does it” right? [inaudible] And that same desire to do the impossible, to create opportunities for their families to create opportunities for themselves are things that are the bedrock of entrepreneurship are the bedrock of capitalism. We are the people that are creating jobs. We are the ones that are risking it all for the things that we believe in. And that is what has allowed us as a country to prosper and move forward. A country of immigrants. We always have been. And it is that, again, audacity, that desire to move forward that allows us as a country to be successful.

Denzil Mohammed: That is a terrific message that succinctly sums up everything we try to say in this podcast. Reinier Moquete, CEO and founder of CyberWarrior, thank you for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and at the Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for this week’s incredible story of entrepreneurship, this time from the child of immigrants. Next week, we will be joined by Theresa Park, deputy director and senior executive vice president of Mass Development, on how immigrant entrepreneurs are revitalizing cities like Lowell, Lawrence, Worcester and more. I am Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 42: Dinesh Wadhwani

JobMakers podcast logo: Dinesh Wadhwani clears the air with light technologyDinesh Wadhwani’s life science business has tackled everything from crop yield to energy efficiency, but when COVID-19 hit, they pivoted to saving lives. Wadhwani discusses how their technology is used purify air and track airborne COVID-19. Listen to learn how this Indian-Ghanaian-American entrepreneur paved his own path to entrepreneurship.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers

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Denzil Mohammed: Migration stories aren’t always simple. Families might have moved to different countries in different generations for different reasons. However, it is that entrepreneurial spirit of leaving everything behind, taking a risk and working for better in a new land that not only keeps them going, but drives innovation and resourcefulness. For Dinesh Wadhwani, founder and CEO of ThinkLite LLC in Natick, Massachusetts and immigrant from Ghana, that journey began with his grandfather who was forced to flee India for another British colony. And despite having to work all alone from nothing, he was able to build a business in Ghana and pave the way for the generations to come. When Dinesh moved to the United States in 2008, as a student at Babson College, the mandate from his father was clear: build a life and a business in the U.S. and not return to Ghana. And that’s just what Dinesh did. Even while he was studying entrepreneurship, he became an entrepreneur. In just a few short years, his technology-based life science solutions business expanded across the globe and evolved into a lifesaving enterprise, purifying the air in hospitals during the COVID-19 pandemic, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Dinesh Wadhwani, founding CEO of ThinkLite, welcome to JobMakers. How are you?

Dinesh Wadhwani: I’m very well. Thank you, Denzil. Thank you for having me here today. I truly appreciate it.

Denzil Mohammed: So give us a 30-second pitch about your business. What is ThinkLite all about?

Dinesh Wadhwani: So ThinkLite is a technology company based out of the Boston area here in Massachusetts. We specialize in high-end technologies, specializing in facilities, and [inaudible]. We started off in the energy space, which has grown into a large division and a company that there’s high-end efficiency lining for commercial applications. We have a division that does grow lighting for agriculture and poultry optimization. And most importantly, which has come center stage the last few years, we have an air division that specializes in very tiny particulate monitoring of viral loads in the air, in the health care space. And as you can imagine, that has kind of crossed boundaries to go well beyond health care for the last few years. So that’s what we do as a company.

Denzil Mohammed: So apart from the obvious, which is the pandemic and your most recent foray into the air space, why is your business important in today’s world?

Dinesh Wadhwani: Our ethos really is we call ourselves technologists, we love technology, we believe technology is going to save our world and we love to build things that create value in a very impactful way. That’s really who we are and what we are all about. Our supply chain extends from designing stuff in Boston, to Germany where we do a lot of engineering and to Asia where we do a lot of the semiconductor manufacturing, and we work very closely with Samsung as well in Seoul, South Korea. So, if you think about it, given the talent that we are fortunate to have cultivated over the years and our interest and what we believe in we have always felt that we want to build products and services and bring it to the world in a very innovative but effective way that can add a value for sustainability, for wellbeing and for challenging the wasteful practices of our current planet. And we started there with bringing to market the first of its kind ultra-efficient LEDs. We were 30 to 50 percent more efficient than traditional LEDs and about 90 percent more efficient than your traditional fluorescent lighting. And now that evolved into smart building and smart lighting, because that was kind of where the opportunity became, now that you had efficient lighting, what else can you do? If you made them smart and turn them on and off and dim them, you could further optimize it. And then, that’s kind of pivoted into, how can we use everything we know about lighting and smart buildings to add value beyond its energy savings? And this kind of happened around 2015, where we were studying together, the executive team and I, and we said, “Think about it.” It’s kind of quite an amazing phenomenon that you have lights almost every feet in the building with a fixture and electricity coming through it. It’s got to do more than just save you money. And that’s when we said, how can we apply everything we know about smart building automation, manipulating spectrums of light and creating different waves of light and marrying that with other chemical compositions to add value in a different way. And that’s how we got into agricultural lighting, we got into poultry lighting and then along the same concepts, and around the same time, we got into how we could use light spectrum to do disinfection as well.

Denzil Mohammed: So Dinesh, you’re from Ghana originally, grew up speaking English, and your grandparents were from India. Is that right?

Dinesh Wadhwani: That’s correct. Yes.

Denzil Mohammed: So this is a very fascinating but also very common story of migration. Not only from India, but from other countries. But, take us back and tell us exactly what happened, how and why.

Dinesh Wadhwani: Sure. My granddad was actually one of seven brothers and our original hometown is a state called Sen in the North Western part of India. And during the 1940s and the time of colonization when India was being divided into India and Pakistan, a lot of people in the middle kind of lost their homes. Because you know, what was considered a general area was now being divided politically into different countries. So my granddad and his brothers actually went to hide in British boats to prevent being a prisoner of war or going to fight. And these boats were trading with other ex-British colonies at that time and that’s literally how my granddad ended up in Ghana, Western Africa, which at that time was a British colony as well. And many of his brothers ended up in Hong Kong. So today, fast forward 60, 70 years, we have a lot of family there and some came to the U.S., but it was a common practice of those who didn’t wanna be part of the political situation and wanted to leave would go to the other colonies that was ruling the countries at those times. So my granddad went there and he made a living for himself. He adapted, he was an entrepreneur and raised a family there. And that’s where my dad was born and that’s where my brother, myself and my younger sister were born. And that became home.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s really fascinating. But again, as you said it’s not an uncommon story. And just to be clear, your grandfather’s options were really slim. It was either fighting a war, convert to Islam or escape. Right?

Dinesh Wadhwani: Right, and many would actually seek refuge in India. And many people did that, where they would go, but start from scratch, right? They didn’t have a home state. They lost all their property, they lost all their jobs, they lost all their land and just have to start from scratch.

Denzil Mohammed: And you, obviously, were able to straddle two very different, I would say, kinds of cultures: Western Africa, Indian subcontinent. So how is your experience, of being an immigrant from another country, has that impacted your business style or the kinds of goals you set for yourself?

Dinesh Wadhwani: Yeah, definitely. I think most immigrants who come to the U.S. for better opportunities or for a better life can probably relate to this. There’s so many things over here in the U.S. that many people take for granted and growing up. We were not exposed to many of these facilities or stilled infrastructure, stuff like internet. I remember growing up, there were times where Ghana, during the 90s, had something called load shedding where there was not enough electricity in the grid. So they would publish in the newspaper that for this week from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM, you’re not gonna have electricity, right? So I remember when my brother and I would come home and we had to finish all our homework before it gets dark. Because when it gets dark there’s nothing much you can do with a candle. Go to bed, right? Little things like this, where we grew up of it being the norm and that’s the life we knew. And when I came to the U.S., you realized how much more advanced the infrastructure is. And you realize how much of an opportunity this is to be able to have fast internet, to be able to have good roads or infrastructure, to move around or to meet people. And to me, there is so much here to be grateful of that we didn’t have growing up. And that changes your perspective. Most immigrants say this, that the United States is the “land of opportunity” because there is a good infrastructure that creates enough opportunity for you to come from nothing, right? I remember when I came here I didn’t know anybody. And it’s less about who you know specifically, which is how it works back home in Ghana too. You could now have a lot of information and have a lot of skills, but it comes down to who you know, for the most part. While that is important over here, of course, there is so many cases we see every single day where someone would come far away from a country knowing no one, but worked really hard, worked honestly, worked to develop certain skills and become successful. And I think it’s just a very well balanced society that we have in the U.S. that creates a platform for doing that. So it makes me always grateful, what we have here. Most countries don’t have that and it changes your attitude. You wake up every morning and you say, “You gotta seize this opportunity”.

Denzil Mohammed: Makes you more humble, more grateful, more appreciative. That’s fascinating too.

Dinesh Wadhwani: It does.

Denzil Mohammed: 12 hours a day you don’t have electricity, isn’t that just crazy to think about now?

Dinesh Wadhwani: Yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: So you came to the U.S. in 2008 as a student on your student visa. You went to Babson. Of course you already spoke English, but adapting to U.S. culture is always a challenge and an experience for everyone.

Dinesh Wadhwani: So my dad would say, even throughout my entire high school and when I was starting where I want to go to school, what I wanna study, he would say, “Hey, listen, you have a good plan B. If things don’t work out, you can always come back to Ghana and we can either you work in the family business, or we are ‘Old Timers’ here and we can find some opportunities for you. But frankly, go to the United States, make a better life for yourself and don’t come back,” right? And that was the message that he gave me and my brother when we came here to study. And when I came and I landed at Logan Airport, I remember it was the day before probably orientation, and I land and I still remember this the day till today is like, “Okay, here’s where I gotta make my life,” right? My goal is to learn, obviously, make new relationships and meet new people. But really, gonna make a living for myself. And the goal is to make the family proud and take advantage of my education and what I’m coming here to do: of what they have sent me here to do and not go back.

Denzil Mohammed: So you founded ThinkLite in 2009. In just a few years you were in 14 different countries. That must have been a rollercoaster.

Dinesh Wadhwani: It was. And I would say that almost every single connection of that came from the Babson community, which is quite incredible. It’s very international, as you probably know, and a lot of friends and I was fortunate enough to be on the scholarship program at Babson. So every semester I had the opportunity to meet with the trustees who also were from all over the world and they would be intrigued with what would be doing. And it was quite a very supportive environment where I remember doing classes where I would tell the professor, “I’ve got to travel over the next three weeks because we have these big projects or big deals that I think I have to be there for.” And the professor would say, “Keep a diary of it and I’ll accept it as your thesis.” Very real and very quickly given the small community it was, many of the professors, the Dean, the president, at that time, were following ThinkLite very closely. And until today I’m so ever grateful to them because of the support that I received. And they would be making introductions all the time. And the exposure we got within the U.S., of course, but even internationally, was we got to seize the opportunity. So the next thing I know, they would say, “This is incredible technology,” and, “You are spending a lot of money for businesses and make more of impact in the U.S. Can you come and do it in the United Kingdom? Can you come and do it in Thailand? Can you come and do it in Singapore?” And I was like, “Absolutely.” And they would literally treat it like a real business and they would say, “Okay, great. You have a team that can come over and train people?” And I would say, “Yes, let’s go”. I would forget many times that I’m still still in college and I have to attend class and I would say, “I’ll come back and catch up.” And I would go. So it was throughout from 2010, all the way up to 2015 there was a lot of expansion internationally where we were building a foundation in those countries where we had large distributors and we were making a lot of impact with our technologies over there; which fostered growth in the U.S. and vice versa too.

Denzil Mohammed: You’re not quite doing exactly what you did at the beginning. So tell us how the pandemic impacted your business.

Dinesh Wadhwani: Sure. So around 2015, we made a conscious decision of how can we leverage our technology, our experience, our relationships and the marketplace to do more than just save energy, right? Like I mentioned before. And I think the single most important change that I personally experienced, and at the company, was we started an initiative to say each time we would close a big project and go do a lighting project for them, “I would like to speak to the head of facilities or the head of our operations myself personally,” and say, “Can you please tell me a little bit more about the other problems you’re facing when you’re challenging in your workplace or your facility?” One of the biggest things that really changed the trajectory of our company was this initiative to ask customers what else we can do for them. And that’s where we learned about a lot more opportunities that we can address. Whether it was, “They have good lighting, but it wasn’t smart enough,” or, “They had good lighting, but they needed to have a unique spectrum of light to increase their yield of a produce,” or when talking to hospitals, which is most relevant in this day and age. We were working with Boston Children’s Hospital back in 2017 and we learned from the facilities’ people that their number one challenge was hospital acquired infection via the air. And this is not something that’s unique to any particular hospital. This is something that exists forever, right? And if you think about it, when people come to the hospital because they’re unwell, they’re sick, they’re coughing, they’re spreading germs and diseases. And simultaneously you have people there who are undergoing surgery, or who have compromised immune systems who are unwell. And these two groups of people are under the same roof, sharing the same air. It’s quite a recipe for disaster and unfortunately there’s no better way, right? I mean, that’s just the nature of how facilities … and what happens all the time, which really cut my heart, was the number one cause of debt in our country was secondhand transmission of germs in these hospitals. And I’m discussing that saying, “We are replacing fixtures every three feet. There’s got to be a better way.” And that’s when the idea of producing a light fixture that can also purify the air at the same time was born. And that evolved into less leverage of technology to now monitor it and make it smart, so we even know how bad the air is to start with and we can always keep it that way. And then it evolved into, let’s make it connected to the HVAC system so it can be even smarter and involved into less stand alone units. Here we have found a software, we built an entire ecosystem of technology, that could monitor the air; tell you if there’s a viral load in the air. Light fixtures that would seamlessly clean the air free of these viral particles. And the whole world was coming to a standstill because of an airborne virus. And it took COVID 19, our global pandemic, for people to realize that you don’t need to be in a hospital to share air with someone to get disease from that. That’s when, for the first time, we learned that what we thought was a niche in the health care world is now something that is applicable everywhere else. And that’s how the pandemic really changed our ThinkLite air division. And next thing we know our marketplace just expanded by infinite-fold, really, of the addressable market.

Denzil Mohammed: Oh, wow. Dinesh, that’s incredible. So finally, Dinesh, as an immigrant to the U.S., your grandparent was taken in by Ghana and you were taken in by the U.S. and this country has allowed you and your family and your business to thrive. How do you feel about the United States of America as your adopted homeland?

Dinesh Wadhwani: There’s a very admirable amount of respect in this country for people who work hard, for people who are trying to make a positive impact. And whoever you share with, in my experience, what you’re trying to do or what our business is about they’ll say, “Hey, talk to this person,” or, “Have you thought of that?” and this celebration of solving problems in this country. I feel this country as a whole really promotes entrepreneurship and promotes originality. It promotes trying to just do good and by doing good: trying to create good value for people. Very few people can say that about the experience going to any other country, really, and being embraced and being part of the community to say, “Hey, we are here creating, creating impact, creating jobs for the people in the country,” it’s really a nice feeling. So I’m always gonna be grateful to this country for that.

Denzil Mohammed: I think one of the things that makes the United States extra special is that it celebrates entrepreneurship and innovation no matter where you come from.

Dinesh Wadhwani: That’s right.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s the idea, it’s the hard work and it’s the value that creates it. And I hope that you and ThinkLite are able to continue creating value and having a positive impact and purifying our air. Please, we need that a lot.

Dinesh Wadhwani: Absolutely.

Denzil Mohammed: We will continue doing our best to educate people on this topic that is so important and affects their bottom line, right?

Dinesh Wadhwani: Yes, that’s right and thank you. And it’s a joy to see the impact that The Immigrant Learning Center does in empowering, whether it’s by your language, by your life skills. It’s always been close to my heart. So I admire that and it’s such an important thing that we need to have for people who come here with a twinkle in the eye and for opportunity and giving them these skills and giving them these tools to help them fulfill their dreams. It’s something that’s close to my heart. So, thank you for that.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s very nice for you to say, Dinesh, thank you so much. Dinesh Wadhwani, founder and CEO of ThinkLite, thank you for joining us on JobMakers.

Dinesh Wadhwani: Thank you, Denzil, a true pleasure.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for today’s incredible story of immigrant entrepreneurship. Got comments, questions, or know someone we should talk to? Email Denzil that’s I’m Denzil Muhammad. See you next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 41: Anuradha Sajjanhar

JobMakers podcast logo: Anuradha Sajjanhar on immigrants' role in pandemic recoveryImmigration researcher Anuradha Sajjanhar joins Denzil Mohammed for a very special episode of JobMakers! The ILC has published a report on the extraordinary contributions of immigrant essential workers during the COVID-19 crisis, cowritten by these two immigration experts. They discuss the vital role that foreign-born workers have played in sustaining all Americans throughout the pandemic, the lack of resources they received and how they can be better supported in the future!

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and welcome to a special edition of JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: What affects immigrants in the U.S. affects all Americans. Immigration is not a separate issue from any national issue. And the COVID-19 pandemic made this all too clear. As immigrants are overrepresented in industries deemed essential. Industries like healthcare, food and agriculture, the supply chain. Let’s be clear, all immigrants in the U.S. make up just 13.7 percent of the total population, but 17.4 percent of the labor force and 18.3 percent of the essential workforce. In fact, while 65 percent of U.S.-born workers are essential, 69 percent of all immigrants and 74 percent of undocumented workers are essential. For Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar, lead researcher for the report Immigrant Essential Workers During the COVID-19 Pandemic, published by The Immigrant Learning Center, co-producer of this podcast, she found that immigrants were largely left out of federal and state support during the pandemic, which negatively affected their safety and the work they were doing to help Americans weather this potent, unprecedented storm. The report, which is available free of charge at, shows that immigrants play an outsized role in essential industries that are helping us get through this pandemic, that these essential workers felt left out of the hero narrative we painted all essential workers with, and that grassroots, bottom-up new movements at the local level can fill the void left by federal inaction as you learn in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar, how are you today?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: I’m well, thank you, Denzil. How are you?

Denzil Mohammed: I’m pretty awesome right now. I escaped the blizzard, thank goodness. So what was the purpose of this research report? Why do you think it’s important?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Several reasons. I think mainly there was a lack in the literature so far bringing together both intimate narratives of immigrant essential workers along with the zoomed out big picture of how policy decisions during the pandemic have affected them. So what we tried to do with the report is bring attention to the vital role that immigrants play in the labor market, as well as the need to offer them care and protections. And we do that through a bunch of interviews, both with immigrant essential workers and with policy experts, makers, advocates in the field. And we show how public policies can be improved to benefit immigrant workers, and as a result the whole country.

Denzil Mohammed: As a result the whole country. That’s a really important point. So, I’m really curious. I’m core off of this report, but I was not the lead researcher. That was you.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-hmm.

Denzil Mohammed: How did you go about doing this research in the midst of a global pandemic?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah, I think the pandemic really affected the access we had in building trust with immigrant essential workers. I think a lot of people that I spoke to are very accustomed to being interviewed and potentially to being research subjects in exploitative ways where they’re not compensated for their time. Their stories are used, their names are used without their permission. So it was definitely a process to reach out. So, along with the immigrant learning center, you and I, we reached out to a bunch of organizations that work with immigrant communities in Minnesota, California, and Texas. And then through those I was able to get in touch with immigrant essential workers. And between May and August of 2021 I conducted about 20 in-depth interviews with essential workers across industries within those three states and 10 interviews with community organizers, policy experts and employers.

Denzil Mohammed: And just to be clear, you did this over zoom or the phone. You didn’t fly out there, right?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah. Yeah. Because of the state that the global pandemic was in, still is in kind of, I did most of it through zoom. Honestly, most of it through phone calls because that’s how the people that I spoke to felt most confident and comfortable by expressing themselves.

Denzil Mohammed: Interesting. So of all the findings that came out of this research what stood out most to you?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: I really think it was the irony of what we identify in. What Cohen and Warren, who are researchers who have worked on immigrant essential populations in the country, have identified as a central policy paradox, which is that foreign-born workers are deemed essential at very high rates. Yet they often lack protections, status, and face marginalization by U.S. immigration and COVID policies. So there was this whole cultural effort to thank essential workers, and as part of that immigrant essential workers, but despite the heightened attention paid to them during the pandemic there were no meaningful federal policy interventions to provide protection or benefits to immigrant essential workers and their families, especially undocumented immigrants.

Denzil Mohammed: So one of the things that stood out to me most was the invisibility of so many immigrant workers. And as you point out, in terms of policy, either they were invisible or they were deliberately excluded and marginalized.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-hmm.

Denzil Mohammed: Which I think the latter is what happened under the Trump administration. 

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-hmm.

Denzil Mohammed: Can you expand on this invisibility of immigrant workers? So, how you felt about it and how they felt about it.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think this goes back to the nature of a lot of the jobs that were deemed essential. So first, the full umbrella term of essential workers, which is a lot of the people who grow our food, keep the stores open, are at the front lines of keeping us safe in health care and in a lot of the supply chain management of the products that we consume. These are not necessarily people that we have direct relationships with. It’s not people we often interact with in our everyday lives unless we’re talking about somebody who has a home health aid or has a more long term relationship with a health care provider. But for the most part this tends to be a form of invisible labor. With immigrant essential workers in particular, I think a lot of the interviewees that I spoke to felt that they just weren’t appreciated in the ways that felt tangible to their material lives. Many of them appreciated the symbolic kind of thanking of essential workers overall that people did during the pandemic. But I think mostly they felt invisibilized by their neighbors, by federal policy interventions at large. And as you said, excluded in many ways too.

Denzil Mohammed: They’re the ones in the fields, they’re the ones in the factories, in the meat processing plants.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: Behind the scenes in the hospitals, stacking the grocery shelves, as you mentioned. So yeah, we didn’t see them. They weren’t the ones on TV, right? They weren’t the ones who were being interviewed and got the press and that kind of thing. Another thing that stood out to me was the fact that we are talking about immigrants, but they are part of the whole society. And so when we think of policies that affect immigrants, it’s really policies that affect everyone. 

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-hmm.

Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned the food supply chain. That affects everyone.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-hmm.

Denzil Mohammed: So can you speak more to this point about how we are all impacted by what happens to immigrants?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the data that we present in the report, the oversized contributions of immigrant and foreign-born workers to the U.S. workforce is clear. Just to talk a little bit more about the policy level exclusion, rather than legislating more protections for foreign-born workers, the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act of 2020 blocked immigrant families with unauthorized family members from receiving any stimulus payments at all. This means that 6.2 million essential workers, who have around four million children who are U.S. citizens, were ineligible for relief payments. We need to understand that and see how the wellbeing and lives of Americans and those who live in America are shaped by underpaid and unprotected immigrant labor and lives.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s such a huge point. If a significant share of the workers who are keeping us going are immigrants, and yet they are barred from receiving aid that everyone else gets, who in the end suffers? It’s the American public, immigrants and US-born people alike. Another point from the report, it comes to mental health. And of course everyone’s mental health suffered during the pandemic, but you make the point in the report that immigrants’ mental health were more acutely or differently affected. And I guess this points to what you’ve been talking about, this policy paradox of not being taken care of by the government, right? That has something to do with it.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah. A lot of our interviewees spoke about the trauma that they experienced from the uncertainty, layoffs, lack of safety nets, health risks. And all of these things, as you said, were universal to a degree. I would say that the specific fear of deportation during the pandemic was compounded for them by being a part of families or households with multiple at-risk essential workers. So that’s another thing we found, which is that most households with one essential worker had several family members or people that they lived with who were also essential workers. Even in the cases where immigrants are eligible for the benefits that we spoke about, fear often prevented them from receiving the help they needed. So several foreign-born workers that we interviewed said that they avoided accessing healthcare or non-cash benefits from fear of deportation or violating what used to normally be in place called the public charge rule, where it would affect their petition to remain in the United States.

Denzil Mohammed: This is very fascinating. Almost like microaggressions in a sense, indirectly from the government and from society against immigrant populations, even though they are outsized parts of our essential workforce. As laid off in this report, you touched on the subject of licensing and credentialing requirements. Now this is something that a lot of Americans don’t pay attention to, but it affects millions of immigrants to the U.S. We’ve all heard about the Indian doctor who’s now a taxi driver in New York because he couldn’t fulfill his residency and all that, which takes many years.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-hmm.

Denzil Mohammed: So one example of this is last year in 2021, three states passed bills that reduced barriers to occupational licenses and certificate codes, allowing state regulators to more easily accept foreign credentials and opening pathways for licensure for immigrant and refugee doctors. Can you elaborate on how this can influence and affect our economy and citizens positively?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s a massive issue and I really came to learn about the significance of it through researching for this report. Chris Ramon, who was formally in the Bipartisan Policy Institute, has written about this a lot. And I think the point really is that changing licensing requirements can allow immigrant workers to use their skills and experiences in professions that allow them to thrive. And so this might be like what you said, the case that you just quoted about doctors being able to practice without doing multiple degrees all over again, that they’ve already done in their home countries. But it can also be as simple as people being able to get driving licenses without having a certain level of documentation because in that way they can work. They can drive to their workplace if necessary, they can do a number of different things. So I think it’s really just about giving people the tools that will allow them to thrive, to support themselves, to support their families. And I think we need to see this beyond just what people consider to be higher-skilled licenses to kind of the full range of restrictions that can be lifted.

Denzil Mohammed: Why would we shoot ourselves in the foot by not allowing people who have skills to use those skills in the U.S. to everyone’s benefit, right? That’s basically what you’re saying.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Denzil Mohammed: And you mentioned different skill levels. So we are not just talking about the physicians and surgeons. We’re talking about people who have agricultural skills or other kinds of things that would allow them to be a more productive member of society.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: And in that way be able to provide for their own welfare and their family’s welfare too in a way that ultimately, as we’ve been saying throughout this whole thing, affects everybody who lives in this country.

Denzil Mohammed: They’ll be paying more in taxes, they’ll be contributing more, they’ll be buying property and items, and sales tax. All these different things contribute. And it almost goes to the idea of freedom and individual liberty of being able to sort of self-actualize without impediment, right?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: It does. And that’s not to say that other federal policy provisions shouldn’t be made for immigrant labor protection, but this is a definite key aspect of making immigrant workers able to participate in the economy more effectively.

Denzil Mohammed: And you touched on something that is unfortunately highly politicized, which is driver’s licenses. And I don’t really want to go down that rabbit hole, but the idea of unauthorized immigrants being able to have driver’s licenses speaks to public safety. Everyone’s safety and ability to work and contribute freely, right? That’s the point you’re making.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Absolutely. Yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: Right. So, one of the things you’ve mentioned in the report most strongly is about the benefits, and the funds and relief that many immigrant essential workers, and families and children did not receive. How do you think it best to deliver that aid to immigrant essential workers?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-Hmm. A lot of people that I interviewed, a lot of the policy experts that I spoke to as well, spoke about how immigrant workers are more likely to take advantage of cash benefits that aren’t related to specific needs because as I spoke about the field piece earlier there’s less fear surrounding that. There’s less need for documentation, and to provide, and to put them at risk and to make them visible in ways that could potentially harm them. Honestly, I think that’s something we need to listen to. I think we need to do more qualitative research on how we can move forward with making benefits and funds available to immigrant communities in ways that would best that would best suit them and their needs

Denzil Mohammed: I even think about the stimulus payments that we received in 2020 and 2021 that went directly to our bank accounts. Not all immigrants have bank accounts. Something as simple as that. And yet they are waking up every morning and heading out to work on the front lines. Just out of the 20 or so interviews you did with immigrant essential workers, and might I add they came from a wide range of countries of origin; Mexico, Nepal, Eritrea. Was there anyone’s story or interview that stood out to you, that resonated with you that you probably would not forget any time soon?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah, I think it was with an 18-year old girl in California whose entire family consisted of undocumented immigrants. And she spoke a lot about the trauma that her family members experienced and that she herself felt through the entire pandemic. The uncertainty, the fear of deportation, the working conditions, particularly in the agricultural sector, and just the lack of recognition really from federal policies, but also just from people not recognizing the danger that immigrant workers put themselves in on a daily basis.

Denzil Mohammed: I remember some of those quotes about, “What if when my parents get COVID and they can’t go out to work, who’s gonna pay the bills? How are we gonna be able to sustain ourselves? As undocumented immigrants we can’t just go out there and ask for aid.” One of the things that stood out a lot is the fact that a lot of the lack of federal action to assist immigrant central workers in certain parts of the country were taken care of by very local initiatives. Whether it’s a grassroots movement, local city council, advocacy organizations. Could you just speak a little bit as to how some of these most successful initiatives worked?

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah. I think in the report we detail a bunch of them throughout several states, but I think the key takeaway there is that in the absence of a lot of the federal policy provisions for immigrant essential workers, state governments came up with a lot of ways to help local communities. There was just a lot of upwards mobilization from grassroots communities, from nonprofits mobilizing for immigrant workers. And I think if we can take something away from that is that we need to consistently keep funding community health centers, community organizations that really at a very local level will understand how things need to be targeted in their communities. Whether that’s funds or whether that’s just direct help in many different facets.

Denzil Mohammed: Direct help. One of the things you mentioned in the report is just information about COVID. Information about the vaccine, information on where to access tests and help. Accurate information to counter the conspiracy theories, and the viral videos and things like that.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Mm-Hmm. Even things like food provision and childcare, which are huge things.

Denzil Mohammed: Right? So overall, one of the main purposes of this report was to lay out a map or an example of what should be done next time we’re hit with a public health crisis. And, arguably, we will be hit with another public health crisis at some point.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: And for me, the main idea was that we need to take care of immigrant essential workers as much as we take care of everyone else in order for us to get through this, any sort of public health crisis, better, faster, more efficiently, more humanely. Anuradha Sajjanhar, thank you so much for joining us with JobMakers. This was a real pleasure to talk to you. And thank you for doing this research.

Dr. Anuradha Sajjanhar: Yes, thank you. It was a pleasure.

Denzil Mohammed: Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for today’s fascinating conversation on how immigrants are helping all Americans get through this pandemic in an outsized way. Got comments, questions, or know someone we should talk to? Email And please, leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another episode of JobMakers.

Episode 40: Rodrigo Souza

JobMakers podcast logo: Rodrigo Souza cooks up successRodrigo Souza came to the United States from Brazil at just 18 and found work as a server. He discovered a passion for the restaurant industry that led him to open his own steakhouse, through which he has created more than 400 jobs and helped feed his town’s unhoused people. Tune in to discover how this motivated entrepreneur kept his business alive, his community fed and his workers employed throughout the COVID-19 crisis.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Fun fact, in the Greater Boston area, more than one quarter of immigrants from Brazil, 27 percent, are self-employed, more than any other group. That means they are more likely to be jobmakers. Go to to learn more. For Rodrigo Souza, immigrant from Brazil and owner of Comeketo Brazilian Steakhouse in Leominster, Massachusetts, the resourcefulness and doggedness in Brazilian culture followed him to the United States and enabled his success. He estimates he’s provided around 400 jobs since his restaurant opened in 2009. And he’s so popular, even in a county that’s 75 percent white, that he won the People’s Choice Award in the 2020 Worcester, Mass. Best Chef competition. It wasn’t always easy. And even during the pandemic, when restaurants were really hard hit, Rodrigo found new and inventive ways of generating revenue and keeping people employed. He’s also found ways to give back to the country that took him in, from his three years in the U.S. Army to feeding the town’s homeless, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Rodrigo Souza from Leominster, Massachusetts, welcome to JobMakers! How are you? 

Rodrigo Souza: Hey man, thank you, thank you. I’m good, thanks for having me! 

Denzil Mohammed: So youre the owner of Comeketo Brazilian Steakhouse in Leominster. Give us the 30-second pitch about your business. 

Rodrigo Souza: Comeketo is a Brazilian steakhouse, and we offer people a very unique experience than other Brazilian steakhouses, which is basically to try everything on the menu. We have a variety of different meats anywhere from pork, chicken, lamb, steak, sausage. We do also grill pineapple on a rotisserie with a variety of different sides and gourmet salads. So coming here, it’s really like going to a tasting.

Denzil Mohammed: So how did you end up in this business? I remember you saying that your mom didn’t even cook, right? 

Rodrigo Souza: Yeah, I did not come from a family that’s big at cooking or anything like that. My mom actually hates cooking [laughs]. I grew up being an only child, and I actually got to learn how to do some stuff when I was young. But I never actually really had on my radar that I would do something like that for a job, for a career. When I came to the U.S., my cousin worked in restaurants. It’s actually a funny story ‘cause I used to go pick him up every night, in the beginning I didn’t have a job and I would fill out an application every time I would go pick him up. And then the general manager said, you cost me more money in applications, I’m just gonna hire you. So they actually made up a position for me, which is like a roller. So I would sit in a corner of the dining room and make rollups all night long, you know, fork, knife and the napkin, those rollups you get when you go to restaurants. I’d do that from like 4:00 until like 10:30, 11:00 at night. My hands are smooth from so much friction with the napkins all day, all night. 

Denzil Mohammed: So you sort of fell into it, and this is not something uncommon. I remember interviewing Shane Smyth from Hugh O’Neill’s Irish Pub, sort of the same thing, he just sort of fell into it. And it was something that was decided to bring their heritage to America in this way. In his case it was Ireland, in your case, it was Brazil. So this takes us back to your roots in Rio de Janeiro. What was life like growing up in Rio? 

Rodrigo Souza: Growing up in Rio, it’s a very, very good experience, man. Actually one of the reasons why I’m here in the U.S. is because I was having a really, really good time in Rio de Janeiro. So my parents kind of deported me [laughs] from Brazil to here. Growing up, being real, a lot of fun, a lot of partying, a lot of friends, a lot of good times. 

Denzil Mohammed: So you said your parents wanted you to get away and discover the world. So 2001, you moved here at the age of 18 to Boston. Why did they want that for you, and what was the experience like, of moving to a place where the language and the culture and the laws and everything were so different? 

Rodrigo Souza: They wanted me to experience something different. They wanted to take me away from my friends, and they put a good offer in front of me in terms of coming here. Everybody has a dream to come to America, right? Even though I did have a good life in Brazil, it wasn’t because I was really seeking for a better life like that. But you know, they wanted me to learn English, they wanted me to learn the culture, they wanted me to create other relationships, create other links, and maybe do something better with my life than I would have in Brazil, better opportunities, et cetera. 

Denzil Mohammed: And so your first job was working in restaurants? 

Rodrigo Souza: My first job was actually work in a supermarket here, Roche Bros. And it’s funny ‘cause this town, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Millis, it’s exit 19 off of 495, I think. And I was the only immigrant, I was the only Black person in the town. Actually when I went to high school, it was kind of like a whole thing, “Oh, this guy is from Brazil,” [laughs]. But that was my first job, doing bags at Roche Bros.

Denzil Mohammed: Wow. Yes, I am actually familiar with Millis, it’s not the most diverse town in Massachusetts. So you opened Comeketo in 2009, and you’ve grown significantly since then. You started out as basically a sandwich shop and now you’re a full-service restaurant. I know it wasn’t easy in the beginning. You actually had to borrow money just to fill your cash register to have change. What was that experience like, starting this as someone who didn’t have a business before? 

Rodrigo Souza: Let me correct you. It wasn’t easy, it’s still not easy [laughs]. It’s never easy. I scraped all the money that I had, which wasn’t a whole lot, to start this business. And then the first day we didn’t have money in the register, so I actually borrowed 50 bucks from somebody and I basically gave that money back at the end of the night. But if you’re talking about being unprepared, we can have a conversation, because I just really saw the first step of the whole set of stairs. I just saw one step, I put my foot in there and kept on going up. By no means I wanna say that we are super big right now, but we definitely in a better position. We’ve grown a lot. We’ve developed a lot. We went from like a seven table sandwich shop, to a 85-seat restaurant, full-blown Brazilian steakhouse, full-service, that’s being able to expose to this community here what Brazilian food is, Brazilian culture, et cetera. 

Denzil Mohammed: What do you think was in you? What qualities do you think you had? You said you sort of had to mature and get seasoned in this in order to be able to be a successful entrepreneur. Do you think you had particular qualities that allowed you to take that risk and start this business? 

Rodrigo Souza: The qualities that I think helped me to get me where I am today is that I’m very persistent. I’m very persistent. I heard this from some other person, it’s not me that created this, but “persistence beats resistance.Persistence beats resistance. Sooner or later, man, you swing that bat so many times, enough times that you’re gonna hit the ball, you’re gonna hit the home run. I actually recently did the Ironman. Three, four months ago, I did an Ironman competition, I actually still have the band. 

Denzil Mohammed: Oh, wow. 

Rodrigo Souza: You’re supposed to take this off after you’re done. I kept it because I want to remind myself of the things that it takes to get to the finish line, not necessarily finish line, but to get to other levels. And I did this because I knew that these would help me in other areas of my life. It’s a constant battle between your mind and your body. And in life, your mind is trying to screw you all the time. Your mind is trying to put you in a safe place all the time. Your mind doesn’t want to hurt you. So you can’t listen to your mind like that all the time. Otherwise you’d never do anything significant with your life, ‘cause your mind wants to protect you. 

Denzil Mohammed: I was gonna ask you what advice you would have for budding entrepreneurs, but I think that’s it right there, mind over matter and just being persistent.  

Rodrigo Souza: Yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: Of course, now we are in a pandemic and restaurants were really badly hurt. You had to come up with new revenue streams. What were they, and do you think they’re sustainable going forward?  

Rodrigo Souza: Thankfully, we actually have pulled through this okay. We had to be very creative. Actually during the pandemic, we turned the restaurant into a little mini supermarket, online. So all the food that we buy, we sold it online, delivering these items to people. This was about 30 percent to 33 percent of our revenue during the pandemic. Another creative thing that we did was we created some virtual brands. We still actually have five virtual restaurants. So we created these brands, we market online, and everything comes out of here. It’s very short menus, five, six, seven items. It’s a good way to capture a bigger market share in the community and use the same ingredients that you’re already using here. You don’t have to buy a whole lot. So that’s a couple things that we did and have done to stay relevant and keep bringing the revenue we should in order to survive and keep people employed. 

Denzil Mohammed: That’s incredibly creative. Would you recommend this kind of branching out in additional revenue streams to other businesses in other industries? 

Rodrigo Souza: Absolutely. From this, I actually created another company called Virtual Kitchen Hall, which we’re actually, not selling this concept out, but for lack of a better term and not having enough time to explain what it really is, just think [of it] as a franchise. We sell these ideas out to other restaurants across the nation, and they execute these menus out of their own kitchen. And what we do is we market those menus in their area. We give them a printer and a tablet, and people order and comes right in their kitchen, we dispatch a driver to go out and get the food. They don’t have to do anything, all they have to do is fulfill the order. And that’s a great way to bring $500, $700, sometimes even more a day in sales. So you already have your infrastructure there, you already have your people, you already have your inventory there. Why not maximize on the space that you have? 

Denzil Mohammed: Wow, that’s great. In 2020, during this pandemic, you said, “People have been supporting us all these years and now it’s our turn to support them. One of the initiatives that came out of the pandemic was “My Local MA.” How do you think this has helped the local economy where you are? 

Rodrigo Souza: I believe it certainly did during the pandemic. We also reached out to a couple families that were in need, we gave out some groceries. We actually had some people reaching out to us to buy people some groceries and whatnot. We currently help out an institution here called Our Father’s Table. Every six weeks or so, there’s a rotation of restaurants that actually give them food, cook them a nice meal. So we definitely try to do our part. 

Denzil Mohammed: As a business owner for well over 10 years now, do you think that it’s important to give back? 

Rodrigo Souza: I think it’s absolutely important to give back. I think that the concept that the Bible has to give 10 percent of your earnings applies anywhere. So it’s definitely important to look at your side and extend a hand to somebody that’s in need and try to help somebody, giving them something, but also teaching them how to do that on their own as well. 

Denzil Mohammed: So according to our own research here at The Immigrant Learning Center, immigrants from Brazil in the Greater Boston area are the most likely to be self-employed of all the other immigrant populations in Greater Boston. Twenty seven percent start their own business, whether it’s incorporated or not incorporated. Why is it that Brazilians like to start their own businesses and create jobs?  

Rodrigo Souza: I think Brazilians find ways to do things better than most people, I guess [laughs]. I think one thing about Brazilian people, man, I think we are very resourceful. That’s another thing about the quality or virtue of being an entrepreneur. I’m very resourceful. For example, I started Comeketo out of nothing, man. Not out of nothing, but what are the chances of somebody starting something, knowing that they don’t have the money to start, they don’t have money to put in the register? You find ways to do things. Like I said about swinging that bat, you know, you swing that bat enough times, you find people that want to help, you find ways to do things. For example, when I moved from my old location to this location, it was a sort of smooth transition. And then when I renovated the place that I’m in, and I turned into a Brazilian steakhouse, we did a fullblown renovation here, and in my projections, we would spend about $50,000. And I did not have that money, I did not have $50,000. And that’s another crazy thing that I did. Some people will call this being inconsequent, but I call that believing in myself. I only had $7,000 in the bank, and I had an idea of how generate the money for the construction while the construction was happening. So I basically talked to everybody that was doing the project with me, and I tried to negotiate something like 30 percent now, 30 percent [when] it’s done, 33-33-34, you know, after I started bringing revenue. So we actually sold a ticket to the grand opening, couple different days as a show. We brought some Brazilian samba dancers, and we turned into a show, like almost a movie theater, you know, like a 5:00 session, a 7:30, and a 9:00. And so I sold a good amount of tickets for that. So as the ticket sales are coming, I’m putting that back in the construction. It was a crazy move. And this construction started at $50,000, cost me like $85,000. This is just to show, I have done a lot of things like that in my life that I didn’t have the means to do it. I didn’t have the resources, it didn’t look like I could do it, but I strongly believed in myself, and I pulled through. 

Denzil Mohammed: So finally, you mentioned earlier that being back in Brazil, everyone wants to live in America and this American dream, and a lot of people who are born here don’t have as optimistic a view of the American dream. Do you think that the American dream is alive and well? 

Rodrigo Souza: I think there’s definitely alive. You gotta look for it, every day. Every day, you gotta knock on doors, right? Every day you gotta knock, knock, “Where’s my dream, is it here? [laughs]. Again, it goes back to being persistent, believe in yourself. I’m definitely thankful that I came to this amazing nation, and it has really taken me in. It’s not gonna come and knock on your door, that’s for sure. It’s not gonna come to you. You gotta go to it. That’s just how it is. 

Denzil Mohammed: That’s a really good point. It’s not just gonna present itself to you. You’re not gonna land in a street paved with gold. 

Rodrigo Souza: Not at all, not at all. 

Denzil Mohammed: You have to actually pound the street in order to find it. 

Rodrigo Souza: And it tastes better when you actually go after it like that, you know? 

Denzil Mohammed: Oh wow, I’ve never heard anyone describe it like that. That’s incredible. Rodrigo Souza, owner of Comeketo Brazilian Steakhouse in Leominster, Massachusetts, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. 

Rodrigo Souza: Hey man, it was my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a notforprofit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for this week’s incredible story. Got comments, questions or know someone we should talk to? Email Next week, we’ll have a special episode on new research showing the outsized contributions of immigrant essential workers that kept the U.S. going through the pandemic, and the policies that ignored them. See you Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 39: Gaetan Kashala

JobMakers podcast logo: David Keane on how taking risks on immigrants pays offGaetan Kashala co-founded Globex Corporate, a consulting firm connecting the U.S. to Central and Western African businesses and governments, giving him a unique perspective on how collaboration between U.S.-born and foreign-born entrepreneurs can strengthen the economy. He’s also the engagement director for the Associated Industries of Massachusetts, where he works with business owners to support their contributions to the economy. Listen to learn how his father’s legacy has shaped his important work.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Let’s face it. The world is unequal. Not everyone, everywhere is given the same chances, opportunities and avenues to fulfill their potential, to succeed. This goes for continents, countries and even within our own borders. There are often things that stand in the way for some people. For Gaetan Kashala, immigrant from the Democratic Republic of Congo, co-founder of Globex Corporate, a consulting firm connecting the U.S. to Central and Western Africa and also the engagement director for AIM, the Associated Industries of Massachusetts, he knows this all too well … both in the Congo and in the U.S. For a host of reasons, many of us are oblivious to the barriers that exist for some groups of people. Gaetan has built a career helping immigrant and other minority small business owners in the Commonwealth by giving them that opportunity for a crack at the “American Dream.” And he’s seen the results. Thriving businesses, growing families and community development. He shares their stories and his own, of a legacy built by his father in Cambridge, in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Gaetan Kashala of the Associated Industries of Massachusetts! Welcome to JobMakers. How are you?

Gaetan Kashala: I’m doing well. How are you doing?

Denzil Mohammed: Pretty good. I’ve escaped the cold for a little bit, so I’m thankful. So, tell me a little bit about your business. It’s a very interesting business, and I know it’s one of the things that you do, but you started this with your father and you connect the U.S. to Central and Western Africa, right?

Gaetan Kashala: Yeah, absolutely. So the company is called Global Enterprise Services Corporation, and it’s a consulting firm that when we started out initially focused on government relations. We would partner with American government affairs firm and then travel to different countries in Sub-Saharan Africa, mainly Central and Western Africa in order to speak with governments, policymakers there, about us serving as their representative in the United States, whether this is before the executive branch, legislative branch, multi-laterals like the IMF, World Bank and EU. So, step one in our growth strategy was really developing deep relationships with African political leaders. And then once those relationships were in place, given that we were based out of the United States, we would reach out to members of the business community here in order to see if they were interested in exploring commercial, philanthropic opportunities that existed on the African continent. So, really symbiotic relationship, or process, in that you developed a level of trust with the governments and then leverage that to see what type of business development needs, strategic communication needs that entities in the United States, Europe and China had.

Denzil Mohammed: As a way of building up entities and initiatives in parts of Africa through partnerships in the U.S., that’s incredible. In the U.S., and you say as well in Asia and the EU. You are very familiar with Central Africa because you’re from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Tell us a little bit about what life was like, if you can recall, growing up there.

Gaetan Kashala: Sure, sure. So, I was born in Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of Congo; about 13 million – 14 million residents live there. I spent the first seven years of my life there before moving to the United States. My father was pursuing a PhD from Harvard University, so that’s what brought us there, that’s what brought us to the United States. But in terms of memories and recollections from my time there, I just remember the vibrancy and the energy of being in the capital and its situation where you would see people hustling all the time, whether that was the street vendors, there was just this entrepreneurial capacity there that in many ways was a means for folks to put food on their table and bring money and resources to their families. I don’t know how familiar you are with the socioeconomic composition of Congo or Kinshasa in general, but it’s a fairly impoverished community. I would say over 70 percent, 80 percent of the people are living below the poverty line from an international perspective, so there’s a real gap between the “haves” and the “have nots” and it was always, even as I think back on it, always really invigorating to see the vibrancy and the hustle that a lot of the people there had, because in many ways they were hustling to stay alive, to keep their family alive.

Denzil Mohammed: Your father came to do his PhD. You yourself studied at Tufts. One of the things the American public really doesn’t know is that the smartest immigrant group is actually African immigrants to the U.S. They have the highest educational attainment as a group. Much of your work now is focused on this idea of engagement, connection, economic prosperity, equity and you’re the engagement director at AIM, the Associated Industries of Massachusetts. I find it interesting that they say in their mission, “We further assert that such economic opportunity must reflect the principles of diversity, equity and inclusion. Everyone must have a voice on the economic future of Massachusetts.” What does that mean?

Gaetan Kashala: I’m really glad you asked that question. So, I currently serve as a co-chair on AIM’s Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Staff Council. AIM had recognized that it wanted its membership to reflect the diversity that exists in Massachusetts, and they wanted to serve as a convener of discussions between the business community as well as historically marginalized population. Ultimately what we’re looking to do from a DEI perspective is just to really make sure that our membership looks like what we see out in Massachusetts, and then we’re playing a role to support that effort, whether that’s through DEI training programs that we offer to members, whether that’s through highlighting the accomplishments of Black, brown, women-led businesses. We understand that this is a continual learning process and we want to be that convener of productive conversations.

Denzil Mohammed: Tell me a little bit about some of the immigrant-owned businesses that you’ve interacted with; there’s the Southeast-Asian Business Coalition and various other associations like that. Do they stand out at all to you … you talked about the hustle in Kinshasa. Do you see that sometimes in some of these business owners?

Gaetan Kashala: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s really amazing because whether it’s the groups that I’ve interacted with, or I currently live in Dorchester right now in the Savin Hills area, and see business, whether it’s Vietnamese businesses, Haitian businesses … I’ve heard of countless situations where one person comes to the United States, immigrates here, starts up a business, begins sending money back home in order to bring more family members here, the family members come here and then they come in and work for the business, support the business and, importantly, add tremendous value to the communities in which they’ve immigrated to. These are not, and not to overly generalize, but in my experience, these are not people that are here looking for handouts. They are came here with a belief in the American dream, a belief in the American meritocratic society, which is also something I should have brought up earlier relative to Congo because in many ways you have your “haves” and you have your “haves nots,” right? Sometimes the “haves” is that you are a “have” because of where you were born, or what tribe you are in, and if that tribe is empowered then you’re getting jobs. So a lot of the motivation for coming to the United States, it’ll be a lot of the attraction, is just that belief that in America, you can accomplish anything. You put some hard work into it, but there’s opportunity here and that I see on a daily basis, every time I walk to get my coffee, my Vietnamese coffee … it’s really uplifting to see.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s incredible, and you know, Americans don’t realize how much of the world is like what you just talked about, separated by class and tribe and lineage and their last names, the color of their skin, where these are real barriers that have been around for generations and generations. And I like that you’ve met these business owners, you’ve talked to them over the years, you’ve pushed for economic equity in Dorchester in your previous roles going down at the community level and talking and meeting these people, seeing the shared diversity that we have in Massachusetts, for instance. It’s not a situation where there’s one big dominant immigrant group. It’s been evenly split. Haitians, Brazilians, Chinese, Indians … how have you seen immigrant entrepreneurship impact the Massachusetts economy and some of the local economies that you’ve been involved with?

Gaetan Kashala: Yeah, I’ve seen it in a number of ways…

Denzil Mohammed: … you mentioned that you live in Savin Hill and I think of Fields Corner

Gaetan Kashala: … yeah, absolutely! You think of Fields Corner, Upham’s Corner. So when I worked at Dorchester Bay Economic Development Corporation, I was responsible for building up the economic mobility program, and an interesting thing about Dorchester Bay is it’s a CFI, a Certified Financial Institution, so they essentially had a bank, a mission-driven bank, that was focusing on lending money and disenfranchised communities. So we would get funds from either the Small Business Administration or the Treasury department, and our charge was to provide capital to those that historically had a difficult time accessing those traditional sources of capital. We supported a whole number of entrepreneurs, many of them were immigrants, so I had the opportunity to meet with these folks, hear about what businesses they wanted to put in place and then work with them, whether it’s through providing technical assistance, how to put together business plan, marketing plan, website … these are the type of basic financial statements that you’re gonna meet. It was in that experience that I had that firsthand look into the immigrant entrepreneur story. I recall working with a lady from Kenya, I believe, she had come here from Kenya, had been working in the health care space for a while, started off as a CNA and then went into administration. She was director of a nursing home and decided that, given her experience, which led her to really see the need for health care staffing, she wanted to start a home health care staffing operation. It was working with her hand-in-hand, wrote her business plan, put together the website, and, now in the process of trying to solicit some funding that she’ll need to be able to really kick off her operation. And importantly, especially in nursing home care, the vast majority of the caregivers are immigrants. And, for the story I was talking about specifically, that represents about 90 to 95 percent of their workforce.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s incredible … 90 to 95 percent. I mean, we’ve seen it, we’ve seen who are the ones taking care of the sick, the elderly generally, but even through this pandemic. It’s your Jamaican nurse, or your Filipino nurse. They’re a huge part of our health care system and many other industries. I want to push back on two things briefly. One is, people are going to listen to this podcast, you talk about it was basically a bank that was giving out money to these disenfranchised communities, and they’re gonna call that a handout. Was that a handout?

Gaetan Kashala: No, no, absolutely not. Because for one plain definitional reason, the funds would be transferred in the form of a loan, but very low interest loan relative to what you would see out there in the normal market. So there is nothing being “handed out” at least through our loan process. Another thing I would just have folks be mindful of … some of the challenges, and I would say a lot of these structural challenges, that exist that prevented a lot of these groups from being able to access capital. So I wouldn’t call this a “handout” in any way that you would say, “Okay, my parent paying for my college education” was a handout. This is really about providing opportunity. In my job, my work there was all built around how do you position folks to be able to achieve economic mobility, and our thesis was that you focus on providing them with human capital, who are the individuals that they’re around that they can leverage and network to be able to advance, the social capital, what’s the infrastructure and institutions that are around there, whether it’s from a school perspective, different trainings and things like that. And then finally, it’s the financial capital. Money obviously is the oxygen that allows us to do a lot of different things. We/I kind of look at it from that framework where in order to position folks for economic mobility, you gotta focus on that human, social and financial capital, find ways to introduce that expand that to different businesses, individuals and what have you.

Denzil Mohammed: So you are saying that there are systemic barriers in the U.S., even here where we think that there’s just this level playing field. Another thing I want to challenge you on is in terms of your business, your consulting business. The model is about connection. It’s about bridging the divides between continents and countries, but we’re in an era, I would say, where people want to “close in.” They want to close the borders, they want to look inward. It’s about America first. How have you seen this notion of bridges and connections with all these different parts of the world in the U.S.? Has that been a good thing in your estimate?

Gaetan Kashala: So in one way, I understand what you are saying, but I think we have to be careful about the connection we make between the political rhetoric that we hear and see, and what’s going on business-to-business, business-wise. Take, for example, like climate change. You heard a lot of talk about the Glasgow conference, but then there’s, “Oh, these governments aren’t making commitments, the politicians aren’t making realistic commitments.” But then if you look at the business-to-business level, you see that there’s tremendous work being done. Fundamentally, if you’re able to demonstrate value to someone, whether that’s an individual or an organization, you’re able to provide them with something that they need, that they cannot get elsewhere, or can’t get elsewhere at a price that makes sense. I think that’s ultimately what this is all about, right? It’s about you’re seeing the demand, that’s out there, you’re seeing there’s a need out there, whether that’s for a construction worker, whether that’s for coffee and you’re filling that need. So, if you’re looking at things from an immigrant entrepreneur perspective, it’s just about really going out there, hustling, trying to identify those opportunities and be able to effectively articulate, communicate what value you bring relative to the other options that are on the table or in the market.

Denzil Mohammed: I love the way you talk about markets, the economy, business-to-business and how business moves these policy changes even, you know? And for the betterment of all of us, for the betterment of the population. I want to bring it back to you and your family, and you move here when you were really young, but you do remember the impoverished parts of Kinshasa. You do remember what it was like. How do you feel about the U.S. as your adopted home?

Gaetan Kashala: I really feel grateful to be here, especially knowing what the situation exists in Congo from a poverty perspective, from an infrastructure perspective, whether you’re talking bridges, clean water, electricity. I think coming to the US, it was almost like a clean slate, or a canvas that you can draw your story on. And it was a cleaner canvas than probably existed in Congo, so there’s a lot more opportunity, a lot of different things that, that could be drawn on that canvas. And that’s really something that should be appreciated.

Denzil Mohammed: And I think that you drawing something that’s really exceptional, something that capitalizes on the diversity that we all experience. And I’m glad that your father made that move. Thank you very much for you and your family being here and for advancing the things that you’re advancing through your work, through your business, through AIM. Gaetan Kashala, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers. It’s a real pleasure talking to you.

Gaetan Kashala: Yeah, likewise! Thank you very much for having me.

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Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice.

Got comments, questions or know someone we should talk to? Email denzil [at] Thank you for joining us for another inspiring conversation. I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

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Episode 38: David Keane

JobMakers podcast logo: David Keane on how taking risks on immigrants pays offAustralian-born immigrant founder David Keane is launching new products and creating thousands of jobs as a leader in the tech industry. He believes that the United States’ willingness to welcome immigrants and take risks sets it apart in the increasingly global economy. Listen to learn how he thinks the next generation of entrepreneurs will migrate, create and innovate!

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Last week, we spoke with Swedish thinker Johan Norberg about openness. The free movement of people and ideas and the progress that results. In the United States, visas and exchange programs have allowed for the movement of ideas, skills, and knowledge into the country. The result? Well, for one thing, immigrants make up more than a third of America’s Nobel Prize Laureates. For David Keane, immigrant from Australia and founder of Bigtincan, an artificial intelligence powered sales enablement platform for leading companies worldwide that is headquartered in Boston and employs more than 400 people, that movement of people is a risk worth taking. A diversity of thought and background can bring about incredible new ideas, products, and services like his industry leading company, not to mention create thousands of jobs as he’s done over the years. David believes that what makes the U.S. special is its culture both of welcoming immigrants and being willing to try new things, to take risks. He wonders though about how the next generation of entrepreneurs will construct movement and sharing in a world of high globalization and connectedness, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: David Keane, founder of Bigtincan, welcome to JobMakers.

David Keane: Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.

Denzil Mohammed: You’re the first Aussie we’ve interviewed, so congratulations on that.

David Keane: Thank you. I’ll try and control this outrageous Australian accent I have so the listeners can make sense of what we’re saying. But no, it’s just wonderful to be here and I’m really excited to talk about our story and share more with you guys.

Denzil Mohammed: So, in a nutshell, describe for the general public your business and what it does.

David Keane: Bigtincan is an enterprise software company. What that means is we make software that is used by enterprise organizations. That’s normally larger companies that are faced with a really significant challenge in their business today. Now the reality of business for many enterprises is that because of this digital revolution we’ve had and the internet and social media, when they think about their customers, they’re faced with the reality that those customers are better prepared and more informed than ever before, before they meet someone on their customer facing team. And whether that’s a salesperson or a customer success person, or a customer support person, that human being, when they actually engage with a customer or a prospect, is finding that very often that customer has done more research and actually sometimes knows more than their own staff member that’s supposed to help them. This is a significant change in how the economy works. I’d like the viewers out there to think about it in their own world. How many times have you gone into a cell phone shop or gone to buy a new retail product or to buy a financial services offering, or even some kind of industrial equipment where you have known more about what you need than the person who’s supposed to be helping you or selling to you. That’s caused a change in our economy. We believe that those human beings who are working on the customer facing side of enterprise organizations need new ways to get better prepared themselves and more informed. So we build the software that enterprise organizations, and we now have 97 of the Fortune 500 deploying our technology, they use that technology to make sure that every one of their human beings that works with their customers is themselves better prepared and more informed to actually deliver a better service and better experience to that buyer. And so, our software is used to really try and make that connection more powerful.

Denzil Mohammed: So even in the 2000’s, you were thinking about this, in a time prior to a lot of the technology and resources that the general public has. Why did you think it was so important to focus on this particular area?

David Keane: Well, my background actually goes back to the 1990’s. Maybe some of our listeners here remember the 1990’s. There was a time when, when you were in a customer facing role, you had all of these support services to actually help you to be better prepared and more informed for your own engagement with customers. As we went through the 2000’s much of that disappeared. And certainly, the GFC caused many of those support roles to go away forever. Now we believed that some of that work could be done by computers, could be done by smart software. And we have the technology now to build smart software that can actually really help folks to work better and smarter. I know it may seem like a long bow to draw, but if you think about today’s world of self-driving cars, how they can help you to perform safer, get from point A to point B more efficiently and effectively, we believe that software can help human beings in a customer facing role to do the same thing.

Denzil Mohammed: But we’re talking Tokyo versus London versus Tasmania. I mean, that’s a lot of different business cultures, right?

David Keane: Oh yeah. Well, what we’ve realized, and I’m sure it’s the same for many of the listeners of this podcast, is it’s a global market. In fact, for many organizations, it is a strategic advantage to be in a global market. And for Bigtincan, we realize that the need someone has in Tokyo or in London or in Tasmania is actually very similar and we can solve those problems with smart data science models and smart software that understand the nuances of those local environments. By the way, we’re in more than 40 languages, not just in multiple locations, in more than 40 languages. And we know that with software, we can start to address those needs. We can make someone in Tokyo who is part of an organization based out of London, feel connected to that company, to have access to the right content, to the right materials, so they can actually really make a difference. But yeah, I think it’s reality for many organizations. There’s a global opportunity. Now we have to also act local while we think global, but, geez, if we can start take advantage of the power of technology, we can make the world more effective.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s fascinating. I mean, you talk about this globalized world. You yourself, you’re from Australia. This podcast is about immigrant entrepreneurs in the U.S. How has that perspective of being an immigrant shaped the vision for your business?

David Keane: Look, I think it’s always interesting when you look at the world and I’ve been very fortunate to have had a chance to visit a bunch of places and meet some incredible people all over the world. You know, one thing for me is that I’m always reminding myself of how similar the world is, even in our differences. And that we have an opportunity to be able to make the world better by embracing those differences, but also helping folks to achieve the similar goals we have in our everyday lives. You know, I think being an immigrant is a huge opportunity and I’m really appreciative of the welcome I’ve had here in the United States and the human beings that have been so helpful in helping Bigtincan and helping myself and my family to feel incredibly welcome here. But I also know that we are very fortunate coming from Australia. And I know that that experience is not the same for everybody. Australia has a particular relationship with America and, you know, I think we’ve been very fortunate to be so welcomed and I’m sure it’s not the same for everybody. So I just really appreciate that. And I think though when you really break it all down, it doesn’t matter where you’re from. It’s “Are you able to bring about, are you able to think in new and interesting ways about how you can make the world better and how you could understand the real-world problems that people have?” And the more you see of the world, I think the better you can be doing. So, yeah, I think as a message to all other immigrants coming into America and wherever it is you choose to go around the world, I think it’s a unique opportunity. And whilst there will be challenges, if you make the most of it, I think the opportunity for growth is really strong.

Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned some really fascinating things there about, you know, the universality of this globalized world, all the things that we have in common. And yet there are very marked differences: language, culture, backgrounds, economic statuses that we also need to recognize.

David Keane: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Denzil Mohammed: And you mentioned the relationship of Australia to the U.S., your move to the U.S. was a very deliberate and thoughtful move. You moved here strategically. How have you seen, as a business owner, diversity? Diversity of thought, diversity of background, vis-à-vis immigration to the U.S. affecting innovation and entrepreneurship? Do you think it’s something that’s needed to innovate?

David Keane: Oh, I think it is, needed is a very interesting word, but I think it is incredibly helpful to have a broad and diverse background as a human being. It doesn’t matter where you’re from, if you have a diverse and broad understanding and you have a broad set of skills, I think that adds tremendously to the innovation opportunity. You know, one of the things that helped, that I saw coming from a small market like Australia, where you couldn’t be as deep in any individual area, you had to be more broad because: small market. So, you didn’t have the same degree of specialization you have in the bigger markets. Traditionally in the U.S., because of the scale of the market, you see many humans who just go deep, deep, deep, in a particular topic, so they can be the super expert at that area. And you combine that with multiple people who sort of pass on the baton as they go between areas of expertise. Smaller markets, less mature markets, you need to have a more diverse set of skills. And I think that is definitely helpful. If you understand a broader range of things, I think you can bring innovation in new ways with that. But I do believe this idea that you can bring your skills and your approach to the world is really what our future is all about. And again, I’m looking forward to seeing what the next generation of entrepreneurs can do, wherever in the world they’re starting out and wherever they see their future. That opportunity to be able to bring their experience and their backgrounds to big markets, I think is what’s going to change our world even more.

Denzil Mohammed: Can you give me an example perhaps of how that diversity of thought brought something to fruition?

David Keane: Oh, in our world, one of the advantages we had actually starting back in Australia (the company started in Australia, and we had our first customers in Australia), we were able to go to those first customers and bring them what you now see in our product. We talked about it before, this combination of skills development, content delivery, and insights into customer engagements. We were doing all of those things when we first started the company. We weren’t just doing one of them deep. We were doing all of them. And if we hadn’t have been doing all of them, we wouldn’t have been able to translate that in the same way to scale that we’re doing now, it just wouldn’t have worked. But we were forced to because the market we were in was not ready to support that degree of specialization. And so that diverse thinking, forced diverse view, was incredibly important to help us to build where we are today. And if we look at some of our human beings in the global Bigtincan team, we’re so fortunate to have people that have also had that diverse background. Cultural, experience, technology, social, those things together can make a difference.

Denzil Mohammed: There’s this theme of almost capitalizing on the globalization that has happened and seeing all of the benefits that can accrue from it. But we are living in a time where nationalism is at the forefront of a lot of people’s minds. They want to close in. And even during the pandemic where we connected over Zoom, which, by the way, founded by an immigrant from China.

David Keane: Indeed!

Denzil Mohammed: How do you respond to the wave of nationalism given that globalization has empowered your business so much?

David Keane: But I still believe that most human beings want opportunity. They want to be able to build futures for their families and they want to be able to create new and exciting ideas. That’s what human beings exist for. And most of that is the same. And our team here has really embraced that and the idea that our humans can move around the world and be part of that experience. We have had human beings that have moved from the United States to Australia, where the company has moved them there, because that was an opportunity for them and their families to have a personal experience that was strong. We’ve moved human beings from Australia to North America. This idea that we can move people around and have them welcomed and part of creating that future, I think is essential for everybody. So look, at the end of the day, I do feel that what souls, and again, some of this is naïve and I know it is, but I can’t help this idea that when you bring people together and you see each other and you realize that people want the same thing, that helps people to be more connected. And a world where people are connected is a better world than a world where people are siloed and separated. But it’s also wonderful to be able to have these dialogues. And I do applaud you for the way you’re doing this and the questions you’re asking because some of these are not easy questions. They’re really not. They’re confronting questions. But I really applaud you for asking them. I think we have to be able to say to the world, some of these things we don’t have the answer for but we’ve got to at least understand that they’re there and then we’ll hopefully make incrementally better decisions as we move forward.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s quite fascinating you talk about it like this. The bringing together of people generates ideas. In the very last podcast interview that I did with Johan Norberg from Sweden, who’s from the Cato Institute, in one of his books he says, “When people are allowed freedom, they don’t create chaos, but progress.” And so, I find that very fascinating, because that’s exactly what you’re talking about here. The bringing together of people and ideas brings things to fruition. It brings new technologies.

David Keane: But it probably brings up bad ideas as well. I think the reality is we have to be honest with that too. Bringing people together can sometimes bring up things that are not optimal, that are not advancing us in the way we want to be advanced. I don’t think it’s always that there is a guaranteed outcome. But that’s a risk worth taking. Because if we, as a society, believe that fundamentally everybody is good, which certainly I do, and I think that’s something that people have a different view on. But if you believe that, and you feel that human beings will overall make more positive decisions than negative ones, then bringing people together through immigration and through travel is important. We will see together. And we don’t know, we are talking here in the end of January of 2022. We’ll see in January 2023 what has happened with the world. Has travel changed? Do we not travel as much as we used to? Is that an impact? And what does that mean to some of the things that we just talked about? Does it mean that those same fresh ideas happen in different ways? Does it mean we encourage more bad ideas? I mean, stressful time to be around on our planet, but a very interesting time. And I just feel that every human must be part of doing what they can to help us to move in that positive direction. And I think technology is going to give us better opportunities. We’re going to have access to more data and more support and more knowledge than any human has ever had in the history of our planet. And I hope we make the best use of that.

Denzil Mohammed: You’ve been affected by immigration policy. I’ve been affected by immigration policy. And given what you’re talking about right now in this interview, how do you see, or where do you see immigration policy in the U.S.? What would be to most benefit for all Americans?

David Keane: Well, this is another interesting question because “for all Americans” is a very, very interesting question that has to be answered I think by politicians. But at the end of the day, all I can share with you is … certainly, before the pandemic, and again, this is a personal experience based in Australia, we used the immigration programs of the Australian government extensively, where we found opportunities to bring folks in that could really make a difference to our business and our customers. It was a major focus. Now, of course, Australia, as many of the listeners here will realize, had a very strict COVID policy, and that was completely stopped. We could do nothing. We could not continue that program. But look, at the end of the day, I think policies that recognize the benefits that diversity can add to the world are important. Programs that support innovation in terms of making it possible to bring skills to bear. We don’t know, and again, it’s a question for a different podcast and a different speaker, but I think at the end of the day, the decisions that the countries make about, how do you combine skilled versus unskilled, these are questions that are really interesting questions for our society. But I do believe that, and again, with a world that is more remote and we’re looking here back in a year … will we have less travel anyway? Will we have less immigration anyway? These are really interesting things that I think, again, people that are involved in these things you are doing, it’s really important what you’re doing because we want everyone to understand this and help to create the best possible future. And so, my views simply is yes, we need policies that support the needs of business. We need policies that make it appropriate. And we need policies as well that encourage, certainly here in the U.S., domestic skill development and the support of human beings who choose STEM type careers to feel they’re supported in those careers. I think that’s something that also we have to address, and these things are complimentary in many ways.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s about the market. It’s about innovation. It’s about ideas. It’s about the economy. It’s not necessarily a political issue, right? It’s a human issue.

David Keane: The only thing driving innovation is people. It’s people. It’s a people business. That’s all it is. And companies like Bigtincan, we have some great technology, and we love our technology. We have a bunch of patents. That’s all great. But the end of the day, that’s nothing. It’s all about the people that work here. And those people need to be able to work together and exchange ideas together in person and remotely, they need to do it across cultural and political boundaries, and they need to be encouraged to realize that they can do it for themselves and their families. And that’s what we need for our future.

Denzil Mohammed: So, you’ve been living in the U.S. for eight years now. Boston has welcomed you. It has helped you thrive. It has helped you succeed. It has helped you spread all over the world. What are your thoughts on the United States as a home for inherently entrepreneurial immigrants like yourself?

David Keane: Oh, well, I can only give you my personal experience which is that we’ve been very welcomed. We’ve given tremendous opportunity. We could never have built the company that Bigtincan is today without the move to the U.S. We’ve all heard the story of “the better mouse trap.” I think a lot of the world, culturally, when they see the better mouse trap, they’re skeptical that it’s really a better mouse trap. And I think there are many cultures that are like that. I think Australia is one of those where, overall, people are less inclined to try the better mouse trap. They’re more inclined to stick with the mouse trap they know. I think what does make the United States unique in my view today is the ability to embrace the better mouse trap. If the mouse trap is better, I’m going to use it. I don’t care about who made it. I don’t care about where it came from. I don’t care about all this stuff. All I care about is, “Does it catch mice better than the old one I was using before?” And I think that is one of the things that is incredible about the United States of America. And I feel it is a core part of the reason why the United States has been able to deliver so much innovation decade after decade, is that cultural attitude to trying something new.

Denzil Mohammed: Willing to try out that better mouse trap. I couldn’t think of a better analogy. David Keane, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers.

David Keane: Thank you so much for having me, everyone.

Denzil Mohammed: Thanks for joining us for today’s fascinating conversation on how immigration enriches America’s entrepreneurship and innovation. Got comments, questions, or know someone we should talk to? E-mail Denzil, that’s D-E-N-Z-I-L, at And please leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed.

Episode 37: Johan Norberg

JobMakers podcast logo: Johan Norberg on how Diversity Drives ProgressAuthor of Open: The Story of Human Progress and senior fellow at the Cato Institute Johan Norberg joins JobMakers to share history and research demonstrating how diversity strengthens economies and societies. Norberg also discusses how an obsession with types of “borders” and other limitations can limit progress. Tune in to learn the ways in which he sees progress already being constrained.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is the first JobMakers podcast episode of 2022.

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Denzil Mohammed: The world seems pretty open, right? The internet, Netflix, telecommunication, travel and we benefit daily from that openness. Let’s have Mexican for lunch! Let’s take a trip! Let’s watch The Great British Bake Off! Ryan Reynolds, for heaven’s sake, he’s Canadian! But we’re also pretty closed in by borders, sovereign nations, state borders, rules and regulations that differ even by neighborhood that restrict what we can do. For Johan Norberg, senior fellow at the Cato Institute, and author of Open: The Story of Human Progress, the proof is all around us. If history is a guide, openness and diversity mean faster progress, innovation and entrepreneurship. After all, if it weren’t for immigration, there’d be no Coors beer, no TJ Maxx, no Carnival cruises, no COVID-19 vaccine. By almost every indicator, the world is better off because it was open to the exchange of ideas and skills that created cures, machinery and technology. However, Norberg says that with today’s obsession with borders, the United States is already losing ground and entrepreneurs and inventors are going elsewhere; as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Johan Norberg, thank you for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. How are you?

Johan Norberg: Thank you. I’m good! Thanks for having me.

Denzil Mohammed: And you’re all the way across the world in Sweden aren’t you?

Johan Norberg: Yes, that’s right. In dark, cold Sweden for the moment.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s getting dark and cold here as well. So, we can share that. We are going to talk about your book, Open: The Story of Human Progress. But I want to take it back a few years ago. In your previous book, Progress: Ten Reasons to Look Forward to the Future, you said, “When people are allowed freedom, they don’t create chaos but progress.” How does that happen in an increasingly diverse world and particularly in the context of the U.S.?

Johan Norberg: Well, first of all, the results are in and we have just had 30 years that (and this is not what we hear on the news and this is not our everyday assumption), but 30 years that were the best 30 years in human history. When we look at objective indicators like the rise of health, wealth, the reduction in ancient scourges like poverty and illiteracy. We lifted 150,000 people out of extreme poverty every day for 30 years. So, apparently, something is being done right. And it is happening because of diversity. When we want to bring something new into the world, if we’re not content with the way things are, then we need innovation. We need new combinations, we need specialization and the ability to exchange with others who’ve learned something else, who’ve come up with something else. They might have stumbled onto a new innovation or specialized in a certain way of production. And that takes diversity. If we’re all the same with similar knowledge, similar skills, we don’t get much new into the world. So, it’s mixture and remixture. That’s what creates this progress.

Denzil Mohammed: And yet, you say this concept of longing for some distant past is really having a bad memory. And from what you’re saying now, it appears as though we are somehow oblivious about the progress that we have made in the recent past. Nearly half of the United States voted twice to get back to some sort of great time or place or idea. Where does that kind of nostalgia, or some might say delusion. where does that really come from?

Johan Norberg: Actually comes from ourselves. It comes from human nature. I also happen to think that all the good music that exists in the world was created in the 1980s and everything since then has been awful. When I talk to audiences around the world, I often ask them, “Think about this. When was the world at its most harmonious? When did we lead good lives? And in harmony with one another?” And most people end up with saying the era in which they grew up. So people who grew up in the fifties think it’s the fifties. People who grew up in the eighties think it’s the eighties. Those who grew up now, believe it or not, they are gonna look back on this day and age as the golden era. And I think that’s basic psychology. I think when you grow up, there’s this sense of the world as an adventure, but at the same time, it feels safe and secure because your parents are there to hopefully pick up your problems and your bills. But then you grow older and you get kids and you have to start worrying about everything that goes wrong and you learn about the world and everything then seems dangerous and scary. Because we still don’t have solutions to most of the problems that we’re obsessed with today. And we forget that every era faced the same difficulties and didn’t have the solutions that we now think of as ‘Oh, that’s simple.’ So I think its psychology is very easy to deceive us that ‘Look, something is wrong today,’ for demagogues to tell you that, ‘Look, isn’t the world a scary place? Let’s go back to something safe that we had,’ and that is dangerous. And that’s why we need history and economics and data, hard data points and statistics to really tell us how the world is really doing.

Denzil Mohammed: I was just about to ask how come we are so oblivious to the progress that we’ve made. And you talk about demagogues who want to take us back to some place that feels safe, right? Expand on this for me. Why are we so oblivious to the progress that we’ve made and the reasons for that progress?

Johan Norberg: Because problems solved are problems forgotten. We don’t think about the problem of smallpox and polio and soon, hopefully we’ll stop thinking about HIV/AIDS. But we are thinking that the world is going to the dogs because of COVID-19 and the pandemic. For simple and understandable reasons, we pay all our attention to the problems at hand because they are the ones that we have to solve. And then obviously, demagogues and politicians, they don’t activate you by saying, ‘Look, things are pretty good, right? So vote for me if you don’t care!’ That doesn’t work. They have to tell you something is worrying. ‘We have disloyal elites and strangers trying to tear everything down, but you need me basically.’ And the media obviously has an interest in scaring us, shocking us because then we have to turn to the news. Nobody pays attention to flights that landed safely. But if there’s a plane crash, obviously that makes the news.

Denzil Mohammed: Talk about this further in the context of immigration.

Johan Norberg: That’s very interesting because we can see exactly the same kind of development there. When you go back and look at waves of migration to different places, the first reaction people have is often ‘There might be a need; socially, economically for the migrant, but it’s also scary new people from another culture we don’t know, are they going to integrate or not?’ And it looks scary. In the United States when you’ve got strangers like Swedes over there in the mid 19th century and Germans, even people who liked migration and immigration like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin said, this is a little bit worrying because they come from non-democratic societies, and will they ever be able to integrate? And then obviously it didn’t take long until the Swedes and Germans were seen as the ideal model of what an immigrant should be like, especially compared to the dangerous Catholics who are coming now, the Italians and the Irish, because they’re dangerous. They’re criminals, and they have another faith, they’re loyal to Rome and the Pope. They will never be integrated. And obviously it didn’t take long before they got integrated and started working, building families. And people said, ‘Oh, they are great! But look at the next wave, the Chinese!’ or something like that. And we repeat the same thing over and over again. The latest wave of migrants are always scary, especially compared to previous ones. Because we’ve already learned of them, we’ve met them and we know that they didn’t tear our society down; they made it stronger.

Denzil Mohammed: You start your newest book, Open: The Story of Human Progress, with the time that then-President Trump scribbled in the margins of a speech he was about to give, ‘trade is bad’. Yet, you go on to argue very vividly that trade is basically indispensable to human life. It’s part of society. It’s part of civilization. Why were those three words so appealing to so many Americans?

Johan Norberg: Yes. That is really the thing we’ve got to think about and try to understand because trade is so incredibly important. It’s the reason why mankind conquered the planet because people, homo sapiens, learned early on how to cooperate with strangers and find mutual gains. And therefore, the moment somebody stumbles onto a way of controlling fire or inventing the wheel, we could all learn from it or how to go into space or read the genome of a new virus and come up with a vaccine. That’s what makes us strong, the ability to exchange and trade. But the reason why so many people believe what Trump says, that trade is bad and dangerous, is that people often think that the economy is zero-sum game. They think that ‘If somebody else is gaining from this transaction with us, then we must be the losers. So it’s always something that leaves us exposed to outsiders’. And that always looks bad. And obviously this is just a myth. The reason why we’ve gotten so strong and rich as we are, is specialization and trade. But it doesn’t feel like it, especially if the others are seeing more rapid growth than we do. Then you begin to think, ‘Oh, it’s the Mexicans and the Chinese, they are the ones gaining. It would be better if we concentrated production back home, and avoided trade.’ But if that were the case with national borders, well, why wouldn’t that be the case with city borders? Why should Manhattan buy from Brooklyn? Shouldn’t we be safer if we kept everything in Manhattan? You can turn your abilities and your hard work into the other things that you need. So basically the more access you have to such a machine, the better off you are. What Trump and many protectionists are saying is that, ‘Look, why do you produce iPhones in China? Wouldn’t it be better if we produce them back home? And in that case, we’d get all the rewards rather than giving some of them to the Chinese.’ And that’s a misunderstanding of how specialization works, because when you leave some of the routine manufacturing to another place, yes, it’s good for them because they get jobs and they get revenue, but it also means you can specialize more of your workforce in more productive areas. So more people who do the design and the programming and the marketing and the distribution. So if you look at a cell phone, an iPhone in your shop, you see how much is going to the Chinese. Well, around a little bit more than 1 percent of the price you pay for your iPhone goes to the Chinese. It’s not like they get all of it. Most of it go to American workers and to Apple and to the tax authorities. And that’s what specialization does. If you had to do all of those things back home in the U.S., well, then you would have to pay much more for that simple manufacturing, which means that many would buy a Huawei phone or something like that from China instead. And it would mean that you’d have to have much more production back home. So it’s a twin loss.

Denzil Mohammed: In your book Open, you say that your argument is that under open institutions, people will solve more problems than they create no matter their personality traits. And it’ll increase the chance that the paths of people with different traits cross and that their thoughts and work can cross-fertilize. You say that this will happen. How do you know that this is certain going forward?

Johan Norberg: Well, I hope I don’t disappoint you if I admit that I’m not certain that this will go forward, because it depends on our choices and it depends on politics. What I’m saying is that if we have open institutions, if we allow our societies to open, to surprises, to people coming up with new things and being free to exchange, this will get great innovations and discoveries and wealth production. It’s not just history and the study of human creativity. It’s mathematics. As they say in programming, ‘With a sufficient number of eyeballs looking at code, every bug is shallow because someone is bound to see the problem and fix it.’ Well, it’s the same thing with the world. The more eyeballs that are directed to our problems whatever they are, the greater the chance they will come up with solutions to it. But at the same time, we live in an era where people are afraid of this kind of openness, where we have plenty of demagogues telling us that no, it’s safe to hide behind walls, behind tariff barriers. And once in a while they do succeed and they might be able to turn inwards. And in that case, we won’t see as much of dynamic societies and innovation, we’ll be weaker for it. So it’s not automatic that this happens. And that’s, by the way, why I write my books. If it was automatic, I could go and do something else instead. But it’s necessary. It has to happen. We have to keep our institutions, our countries, our world open to continue to make progress.

Denzil Mohammed: And I think of the example of Moderna, which came up with one of the first vaccines and Derrick Rossi, immigrant from Canada, Noubar Afeyan and Flagship. It’s all these different people from all these different places who came together to found this company. Pfizer, the same thing, immigrant co-founders. We see it, it’s there in the headlines every day, this kind of innovation that is drawn from, as you say, different eyeballs coming from different places.

Johan Norberg: And even more, the reason why Pfizer could do it was that they cooperated with BioNTech in Germany and they were founded by and are led by two immigrants and descendants of immigrants from Turkey.

Denzil Mohammed: It always astounds me that this nation was built by immigrants, people who fled other places, who had some sort of desire to succeed and to live and to thrive that they couldn’t have done in their homeland. It’s much the same today with immigrants who are coming, that inherent entrepreneurial spirit that often leads to them starting businesses at twice the rate of the U.S. born. But one of the reasons that Americans are turned off by immigration as an issue is the chaos that they see. And you mentioned the media and demagogues earlier on blowing up certain things about immigration. And that includes the southern border, where we have these camp sites of immigrants from South America, Central America, Haiti, different places. Speak a little bit to that idea of the border actually causing that chaos vis a vis your concept of openness.

Johan Norberg: Yes. There is a reason why nativists and anti-immigration groups always try to show us vivid imagery of waves of migrants, not individuals, but it looks like chaos and just large groups, because we dislike chaos and groups approaching it triggers this tribalist mentality and it is scary to us and we want to do anything to just shut it down. So we can often see that. In Europe we’ve seen how far right groups use imagery that they find in the other side of the continent of something that looks like chaos and tells us “This is happening here,” because immediately we react with our reptilian brains. The problem of course, is that this is something that you create with borders. That’s not how people act. If people are going for employment or moving to a place where they find better options, moving into a new apartment, it’s not chaos. It’s not anything like that. If you look at this on an individual level, but when you suddenly impose a border blocking people from doing it, obviously people are bound to end up there and trying to do anything to get in if that’s the only option, if there are no legal simple official means to do that. If you did the same thing in Manhattan, just imposed a border across the whole island, obviously people would concentrate right by that border trying to get over because that’s the only way to meet with others, with friends and relatives and do business and move to a place that might be more giving more option to you in your life. And that would look like chaos as well, but that’s not what Manhattan looks like when it’s open, when you can easily cross from one end to the other.

Denzil Mohammed: Even during the pandemic foreign-born health care workers who could have moved to different states that were experiencing overcrowding of ICUs and things like that, but because of state restrictions or federal restrictions, they could not do that. And I even think of probably the most mobile workforce in the U.S., which is undocumented immigrants. It’s almost like an underground railroad to move to states where they need meatpacking workers or poultry workers or agricultural workers, fracking workers. And the idea of them being able to move to these places, to fill those gaps. We don’t even recognize that. So therefore, ultimately, how do you think individuals could adopt a more open mindset in their day-to-day lives?

Johan Norberg: Rather than looking for the science of how somebody’s different, we can override it and learn that, well, it’s the differences that can teach us something new and gives us new opportunities, but also realizing that if somebody else is a human being, it means that there are other circles of identity, personality traits, tribe that you have in common with them, yeah. They might be foreigners. They might be Norwegians, but he’s also a father. He might also be interested in history. He might be cheering for the same English team in soccer. He might be listening to electronic music. You can always find those different commonalities between yourself and other individuals. If you look hard enough, if you don’t think of people as belonging just to one group. And that, I think, is the beauty of a more open and individualistic world, to realize that we don’t just have one kind of identity. We’re made up of multitudes of allegiance.

Denzil Mohammed: No, no Johan, I think that’s too much work for the average person.

Johan Norberg: Could be.

Denzil Mohammed: Your book Open: The Story of Human Progress is available for sale. Thank you very much, Johan Norberg, for joining us on the JobMakers podcast.

Johan Norberg: Thank you so much, Denzil, this was a pleasure.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for today’s fascinating conversation on how immigration enriches entrepreneurial and innovation ecosystems. Got comments? Know someone we should talk to? Email Denzil, that’s D-E-N-Z-I-L @ Please leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another episode of JobMakers.

Episode 36: Jeff Farrah

JobMakers podcast logo: Jeff Farrah on why we need a start-up visaJeff Farrah, general counsel at the National Venture Capital Association, brings his unique insights into immigrant entrepreneurship, venture capital and startups to this episode of JobMakers. Listen to discover how he believes a “startup visa” could yield tremendous benefits to the United States economy.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: As we’ve established in this podcast, immigration and entrepreneurship go hand in hand. Immigrants are twice as likely to start a business. So why, then, don’t we have a visa allowing immigrant entrepreneurs to stay here? For Jeff Farrah, General Counsel at the National Venture Capital Association, a D.C.-based group that advocates for public policy that supports American entrepreneurship, a so-called start-up visa is a no-brainer. For immigrants who went through our universities or worked for American companies, or simply have a viable business plan and want to start a business here, we should be rolling out the red carpet. Instead, we reject them and actively deny ourselves job creation, innovation and economic dynamism. Jeff is advocating for a start-up visa and other immigration reforms that would bring jobs to America. And he notes that it’s not just big policy changes that could move the needle, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.  

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Denzil MohammedJeff Farrah, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. How are you? 

Jeff Farrah: I’m doing well, Denzil. Thanks so much for having me.  

Denzil MohammedSo why is immigration such an important issue to the National Venture Capital Association? I see it’s one of your 10 issue areas. Where does it rank and why? 

Jeff Farrah: Well, I think back to a conversation I had with a board member of ours several years ago. We were walking in D.C. between meetings at an agency on the way to Capitol Hill, and we were talking about a lot of the issues on NVCA’s list, and he said, so many of the things you all do are so important to us and important to the founders, but when you think about immigration, you’re really talking about the whole company, because without these individuals coming to the United States, oftentimes to launch a high-growth start-up, there’s no company in the first place. So it’s kind of a genesis moment in some ways. And so I think that all you have to do is look at the storied history of immigrant entrepreneurs who have launched so many iconic U.S. companies, and it becomes obvious why it is that we really need to make some serious changes in this country if we’re going to remain the best place in the world to launch a high-growth company. 

Denzil Mohammed: So has it always been a focus of your association, or have there been times where it’s taken precedence over others? 

Jeff FarrahA lot of times with any trade association, we’re a little bit at the whims of what it is that Congress and federal policymakers are doing, and so there are times when immigration is something that is a lot more on the list. I’m reminded, of course, of the time period during the Obama administration where there were efforts to pass comprehensive immigration reform, also happened during the Bush administration. During the 2013 bill that I’m referring to, there was a startup visa that was included in that that NVCA had a lot to do with pushing. In terms of time period, it’s certainly been a piece of NVCA’s advocacy work for many decades. And this is something where going back about 15 or 20 years, it was a group of venture capitalists that really recognized first that we didn’t have a tailormade way to be able to have foreignborn entrepreneurs come into the country, that we were very much using these square peg, round hole solutions, and that we needed to have a more elegant way to allow these individuals who want nothing more than to launch new American enterprises to be able to come to our country. Really ever since then, a start-up visa has been something that has been at the forefront, and we’re of course very interested in getting this across the finish line, but we’ve had a number of successes along the way. 

Denzil Mohammed: So this start-up visa, you make it sound as though it’s almost inherently American, this idea of enterprise and starting a business and creating opportunities. So I see several countries have some form of a start-up visa, from Australia and Canada, all the way to Estonia and Lithuania, the Netherlands, Singapore, Denmark, Chile. Where is the U.S. on this issue? 

Jeff Farrah: Unfortunately we’re not far enough alongI think the countries that you’ve mentioned, both in immigration, but in other policy areas too, they’ve seen all the benefits that highgrowth start-ups have created in the United States, and our playbook is obvious in terms of the things that we have done in this country to create that secret sauce, and so other countries are trying to replicate a lot of the policies that we have had historically in this country. But in one way, they’ve innovated and done things that we’ve not been able to do, which is in trying to attract the world’s best entrepreneurs to their shores. Despite the fact that we’ve seen this proliferation of other countries creating start-up visas, we have not in the United States, and it’s not because it’s a terribly controversial ideaIn fact, in my time talking with a lot of lawmakers, you don’t really get any pushback on the substantive issue. If you ask people, “Should we make it easier for individuals who want to create new American companies and give American citizens jobs? Should we allow those people to do so more easily?” you will probably get 535 members of the House and the Senate to nod in approval. The tricky part though, is that immigration policy tends to be caught up in some other very, very controversial issues. We’ve been in a bit of a dynamic here in the last several years where not much else can move on immigration reform unless the entire package moves. And so the politics tend to be very complicated and it does lead to this unfortunate situation where perhaps some of the lowhanging fruit like a start-up visa are not able to get across the finish lineWe’ve certainly tried to come up with perhaps creative ways of addressing that, but ultimately have not been able to get the bill passed. We have been very, very fortunate to have champions on this issue on a bipartisan basis, going back many years. The most recent version of this that viewers should take a look at is called the LIKE Act from Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren. It’s the Let Immigrants Kickstart Employment Act, and this is Ms. Lofgren’s latest version of a bill she had done previously to create a start-up visa, and she both creates a non-immigrant visa and then an immigrant visa that individuals can graduate into. So if you first come on the non-immigrant visa or you come on an O-1A visa, you can graduate into the immigrant visa on a pathway to citizenship. And then over on the Senate side, there is a larger bill called the Startup Act, which does a number of things in start-up policy, and that’s from a group of senatorsMark Warner from Virginia, Jerry Moran from Kansas, Amy Klobuchar, Roy Blunt, really a great group of senators. Within that bill, there is also a start-up visa. So that really shows that there is the capability of this really getting the attention of people from all different political stripes. 

Denzil Mohammed: I understand this idea of it being mired within something that’s so politicized and so contentious, immigration, whereas it’s such an integral part of what America is. And I know of many stories of entrepreneurs or budding entrepreneurs who, because of our immigration system, were not allowed to stay here and start their companies. An educational online resource called Sutori, started by a group of three immigrants, two of them had to go to other countries in order to continue the business, only one was allowed to stay here. And you spoke earlier about it being such a part of America’s secret sauce. So many iconic American brands, Levi’s jeans, Kraft cheese, Coors beer, Budweiser, up until Tesla and Google and eBay, all founded by immigrants. Explain to me how the start-up visa would work, and other initiatives that you’ll support, like the idea of stapling a green card onto a college diploma.  

Jeff Farrah: I think that a great illustration of how the start-up visa works is mentioning perhaps another famous foreignborn entrepreneur. There’s a gentleman named Jyoti Bansal, and Jyoti is from India originally. He came to the United States on an H1B visa and he wanted to be an entrepreneur, but he was working under his H-1B status, that was the authorization that he had to be in the country. And Jyoti has talked publicly about the fact that he needed to wait seven years in order to get his green card. Well, of course, he couldn’t launch his own company while he was working on an H-1B visa, so he needed to have the green card to be able to go and do that. And so you think about somebody like him who is unnecessarily waiting to do what they’re probably put on this earth to do, which is to launch a highgrowth company. Well, Jyoti finally gets the green card. He launches a company called AppDynamics, and AppDynamics on the eve of its IPO ended up selling to Cisco for $3.7 billion. And you think about that situation. Obviously Jyoti has done a tremendous job of creating value. He’s got lots and lots of employees, a leading American technology company, values it at almost $4 billion. And you think to yourself, it’s really a shame that we had to wait that additional seven years for that individual to go off on their entrepreneurial journey. And then the other issue that Jyoti has talked about is that he had friends of his during the same time period that didn’t feel like they could wait all the time that was needed, and so they ended up leaving the country and going and launching new companies in other countries. And that is unbelievably frustrating because the United States could have had those companies. We could have had that additional dynamism in the economy, we could have had that employment, we could have had that innovation, the intellectual property, so on and so forth. One thing that we’ve spent a lot of time talking with policymakers about is there’s this recognition in a lot of circles here that venture has really become globalized in many ways, because as I said before, so many countries have copied our playbook, and this is a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do, to try and create start-up ecosystems in their own countries. If you look out over the last 20 years or so ago, the United States used to get about 86 percent of the global venture capital pie that would go into U.S. start-ups. That number’s been dropping over the course of the last couple decades, and the last couple of years, we got about 51 percent of global venture capital. Now, the total number, of course, continues to go up. We continue to raise more venture capital here in the United States, which is a good thing, but it also shows that other countries are getting their act together, and they are able to welcome these individuals who are unfortunately not welcomed in the United States with something like a start-up visa. And so that’s something we’re really trying to fix here because I think that ultimately the visa categories that we have now at our disposal, they’re not made for the entrepreneurial model. You think about an individual who goes to work at a large tech company on an H-1B visa, that’s a different circumstance as somebody who wants to launch his or her own company. Or you think of somebody on an O-1 visa. Sure, there are lots of entrepreneurs that end up getting O-1 visas, and that’s a great thing, and certainly a way to capture some individuals, but when you’re trying to measure whether or not someone is extraordinary enough to get that O-1 visa, that means they have to have a certain track record of accomplishment to point it to the direction of USCIS, which ultimately is making those decisions. That doesn’t work very well if you’re 23, 24, 25 years old, and this is your first company, or maybe it’s your second company and your first one failed. And so we are losing entrepreneurs who are not able to use the categories that we have now, which is why we need to create a category for these individuals who want to launch these companies so that we don’t lose out on those opportunities going forward. 

Denzil Mohammed: And in their own way, certain states have actually stepped in to try to solve this. In Massachusetts, for instance, there’s something called the Global Entrepreneur in Residence Program, a way to bypass the quotas that would allow highskilled immigrants who’ve gone through our university system to be able to stay here and incubate their businesses. Thomas Ketchell, the person I mentioned, that was his only avenue in order to be able to stay here. How would these start-up visas create this ripple effect of employment in the economy? 

Jeff FarrahThe economic literature on this is very, very clear, which is that the growth in our economy, the dynamism that I referenced before, it comes from young companies as they scale and grow. You look at these companies that are five years old or less, and they’re the key drivers of employment, where you have a lot of larger companies that are roughly hiring and firing in proportion on an annual basis, and that’s probably going to be the way it’s always going to be. But then a lot of the growth comes from these really special highgrowth young companies. And so we need to figure out how it is we get more entrepreneurship, how it is we convince people that they need to leave their perfectly secure jobs at, pick a company, and jump out and do something extraordinary and audacious. One component of doing that is to allow individuals from other countries who are very interested in following that model to come here to ultimately do it. We know that foreign-born entrepreneurs are among the most successful ones anecdotally. We also know that immigrants tend to be more entrepreneurial from a lot of the data that’s been published I think in the Harvard Business Review by Professor Kerr, and so it’s certainly something that seems obvious to us. I think that one frustration that we have encountered with a lot of policymakers is this very wrong assumption that just because the United States has been the best place to launch a highgrowth company in the last 50 years, that that’s necessarily going to be the case in the following 50 years. And that is absolutely not the case. We cannot afford to rest on our laurels because as I said before, other countries are very, very serious about taking this mantle away from us, and we know that entrepreneurs are very influenced by public policy. When there are signals that are sent to the marketplace, that is something that people ultimately do derive lessons from. In the case of immigration, if we’re sending up a giant stop sign at our borders to individuals who want to create new companies, those people are dogged individuals, and they will go and start that company in other countries, and there’s new capital available all over the world to do that. 

Denzil Mohammed: It’s so interesting that you talk about this globalization of venture capital and funding and our loss in the rankings in the world. I mean, from 80 something percent to 51 percent, that’s really astonishing and almost shameful. Describe for me the International Entrepreneur Rule. What is that about? 

Jeff Farrah: So this is something that NVCA has led on for many years. As I alluded to before, when there was comprehensive immigration reform that was going on in Congress, at one point it became obvious that that wasn’t going to come to pass. And so what the Obama administration did was, it asked itself what other tools are out there where we might be able to smooth the path for foreignborn entrepreneurs, to allow these individuals to create new American companies, but to do that without creating a new visa category. What the Obama administration determined is that they could use something called parole authority, and parole is used in a lot of different contexts to allow individuals from other countries to remain in the United States. If you look at the statute that gives the Department of Homeland Security and USCIS this authority, it talks about [how] the individual needs to provide a so-called significant public benefit to the United States. What the Obama administration did, to their credit, was they put that in an economic context and they said, when an individual is starting a new company, they are certainly providing a significant public benefit to the United States by way of employment and innovation and all the things that that we’ve mentioned before. So they launched the International Entrepreneur Rule in the final days to allow the Department of Homeland Security on a case-by-case basis to look at applications of would-be immigrant entrepreneurs and determine whether or not they met a series of requirements. When President Trump was elected, we had a sense that this was going to be tough sledding, just given a lot of the immigration rhetoric that had gone on, and so we ended up approaching the Trump administration very early to try and really make sure they understood that this was a way to create American jobs here in the country, and very much should have aligned with President Trump’s vision for what he was talking about during that campaign. But unfortunately for us, they didn’t see it that way at all. They made a couple of attempts to repeal it. We ended up filing the first federal lawsuit in the history of NVCA against the federal government to block them from doing that. We won in federal court in Washington D.C., and it was really because of that lawsuit that the International Entrepreneur Rule was around. Now, we’re in a situation where applicants are starting to apply for the International Entrepreneur Rule. The final thing I’ll just mention on this is that it was really fantastic that one of the first individuals who ended up getting the International Entrepreneur Rule designation was backed by the then board chair of NVCA. So it was a great culmination that you had this individual who was working in the network security field, had a great idea, but was in a bad spot from an immigration perspective. He ended up applying for IER and getting it, and so that was very rewarding to see that happen because of our work. 

Denzil MohammedBut looking more broadly at the immigration policies of the last administration, it wasn’t simply a crackdown on unauthorized immigration. They significantly cut legal immigration to the U.S., even the high-skilled, best and brightest that they claimed they wanted. Reflect a little bit on what happened over those four years, and how do you see that as having benefited or hurt the United States? 

Jeff Farrah: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of the way it went about. And I think this is something where a lot of the messaging in public from former President Trump, a lot of the individuals in his administration, would talk about illegal immigration as being their focus, and that if individuals just would only go through the legal process, then that would be perfectly fine. It’s individuals that didn’t go through the legal process that they had a problem with. But of course that wasn’t what was going on in reality, because there was really a two-pronged attack that was going on. It was, as they said, focused on individuals that perhaps were not going through the process, but simultaneously focused on a lot of individuals that had been waiting in line, as folks would say. I think that during the Trump administration, we cannot quantify what types of individuals had a painful experience and gave up their desire to come to the United States, to either work at a high tech company or to go through a process to try and become an entrepreneur. And so that’s something where those individuals probably are in other geographies now working on their companies, and that’s real lost economic value that our country is not going to get back. 

Denzil Mohammed: So I took a look at the White House’s website to see what the BidenHarris administration’s top priorities are, and immigration is one of them. They call it outdated, they call it a long broken system. What is the path forward? 

Jeff FarrahRight now we’re in a situation where clearly the president is focused both on COVID, but also on the Build Back Better agenda, and that’s dominating the headlines, and certainly something that I think Democrats are clearly highly motivated to get this over the finish line during this calendar year, and so I think that’s going to be the focus. It does not look at this time as if immigration policy is going to be able to be in the Build Back Better Act, and that really is because of the budget reconciliation tool that the Democrats are using here, and there are a variety of rules that apply to the types of things that can go into that bill. So in terms of looking forward, this has been an issue that there are a lot of key constituencies, especially within the Democratic Party, that have wanted to make progress in immigration reform for many, many, many years, and it’s been incredibly frustrating, so I suspect that there will be a concerted effort to make progress on this. I think, though, that the issue will become ultimately what the makeup is of the House and the Senate, and that might be something that might frustrate a lot of these efforts going forward. Some people are projecting that Republicans are likely to take the House, perhaps they will take the Senate. That probably doesn’t lead to a positive outcome on immigration reform. 

Denzil Mohammed: Its not even necessarily an immigration issue. It’s business generation, it’s job creation and it’s inherently American. I think that’s where it fits into the narrative for me, as far as I see it. But it’s also a human issue. It’s people who build up dreams and need a place where they can actualize their ideas for the benefit of the host country, right? 

Jeff Farrah: I completely agree. And the thing, too, is that there are these efforts right now going on on a so-called China bill, and it’s gone by a bunch of different names over time. 

Denzil Mohammed: I wish you the best of luck in your advocacy and in your work, and I hope more people join your coalition to be able to get these things done. We need an immigration system that works for all of us, right? 

Jeff Farrah: We do. I appreciate you shining a light on this, and it’s been a pleasure to be part of the conversation. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for today’s insightful conversation on how welcoming entrepreneurial talent benefits all of us. It’s a good way to end our first year. JobMakers will take a break for the holidays and return on January 6th with a fascinating interview with the author of Open: The Story of Human Progress on how borders are actually holding us back. Send your questions to I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you in 2022 for the next episode of JobMakers. 

Episode 35: Carlos Castro

JobMakers podcast logo: Carlos Castro, from crossing the border to owning a businessEl Salvador-born Carlos Castro crossed the border to the United States to chase his dream and escape the dangers of his country of origin. Once he learned English and obtained his citizenship, he founded a business that now employs more than 200 people. Tune in to learn how he’s given back and become a community leader.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: What do you know about migrants who cross the southern border, and where they go in life if their journey is successful? Do you know what they’re fleeing? What skills they may have? What their dreams are? What motivated them to take such a dangerous risk? For Carlos Castro, President and CEO of Todos Supermarket in Woodbridge, Virginia, it was decapitated heads lined up on fences. It was a civil war. It was virtually no economic opportunity in El Salvador. Carlos took a huge risk as a young man to cross the border without authorization. But in that dangerous journey was a determination to support his family and find them safety, as any husband and father would. Carlos, who became a U.S. citizen in 1990, is now a business and community leader in Northern Virginia, employing more than 200 people. He explains some of the things Americans find perplexing, like why do migrants cross the border, why immigrant business owners tend to hire people like them, and what life is really like in the hellish countries where desperate migrants come from, in this week’s JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: Carlos Castro, welcome to the JobMakers podcast. How are you? 

Carlos Castro: Very good. Thank you for the invitation. 

Denzil Mohammed: So you are founder, president and CEO of Todos Supermarket in Woodbridge, Virginia. Describe your business for us. When did it launch and where is it today? 

Carlos Castro: I was at a party for a friend of mine, and she came to me and she said, “Look, there is a need for a grocery store here. Why don’t you start one? And I go like, “Why me? [laughs]. You know, I don’t know anything about grocery stores. But a year later, I was talking with some friends about starting a businesswe went through many, many ideas, and then I remembered what my friend told me, and we decided to open Todos Supermarket because it was only a tiny Mexican store, like 500 square feet. It was very, very small. And we took 2,500 square feet. It was very, very small. But we didn’t know how to negotiate contract, we just went and signed for whatever they offered me. So then my wife was running it. The idea was that my wife was a maid, a house cleaner, and that she could have her own business and I would have my own business, and that’s how we started in 1990. And after I realized that actually I was not doing very good in construction because I was most of the time on the phone with my wife, trying to resolve issues and figure out why we were not selling. Then I decided to give up my construction business in D.C. and come to the store, help my wife. The problem is that she did not have money to pay me a salary, she barely paid herself a salary. So I became a tax preparer, and by being a tax preparer I realized that people were not taking advantage of home ownership, so I became a realtor and I was working out of the store. It was very difficult years. But we start to ask the customers, “What would you like us to have? every day since day one, and that’s how we actually became to know that even though we speak Spanish, even though we’re Latinos and everybody thinks we are all Mexican, it’s just not that way. Bolivians have their food, Colombians, Peruvians, you name it. So it was a exciting learning and very difficult time, but the beauty of it is that in some countries, the owners of the businesses are considered very smart people that you can go and get advice. People would come to my store and ask for things, and then my wife would tell them, “Come back at six, my husband is gonna be here. And then by the time I got to the store, I had a line of people that had something to ask and it felt really good, and it create that kind of loyalty in our community. That went on for five years. Then we decided to move to 5,000 square feet in five years. And then another five years, we moved to 10,000 and then to 18,000. By the time we were in 2010, we actually got into this one location at Marumsco Plaza in Woodbridge that has a total of 75,000 square feet, with offices and headquarters and everything. Had like 180 employees, we still have 180, some of them have left, and we have hired new people. My attitude has been always that we hire for attitude. You get the right attitude, I can teach you the business. So my general manager, I found her flipping hamburgers at the McDonald’s nearby, and she actually took the offer the same day I put it to her. She’s now my general manager. And her case has repeated over and over. But my father, he was always helping. He was a builder, and he always was observing people. I was a kid always with him, I was his first child, so he was always looking at people and giving the opportunity. So Todos Supermarket have done the same. We give other people opportunity. When we bring new people to the team, nobody gets to worry because we don’t compete, we complement each other. 

Denzil Mohammed: Giving people opportunity is key, especially recently arrived immigrants. They just want a crack and they want a break. And they’re able to develop their skills from flipping hamburgers to becoming general manager of a massive 75,000 square foot store, I mean that’s pretty incredible. And you mentioned your father and growing up, obviously you didn’t grow up in Northern Virginia, you grew up in El Salvador. Most listeners will have no idea what life is like in a place like El Salvador. Paint a picture for us. What was it like growing up? 

Carlos Castro: We were very poor. My father built his house in the capital with salvage materials, pieces of metal. We laugh all the time because I told him that we had the biggest window in the living room. The only problem is that it didn’t have any glass to hold, you know [laughs]. And we used to go and we closed our door and we put like a big piece of pipe to keep it locked. And then of course you lock the door and then the window is open where you can run a truck through it [laughs]. So it was funny. We didn’t have any running water or indoor plumbing. My father kept reminding us what we needed to do to really survive and reminding us that we didn’t have any inheritance to receive, that all we had was an able body and a good head on them, and that we have to do our best. One thing that happened during those days is that, good jobs were reserved for people that were friends of the owners of the company or a boss in the company, and poor people like me didn’t have any chance. I worked with my dad the first few years, and I moved to work at a factory, but to get a 25 cent salary increase in a year, we almost had to go into a strike. It was like that. But I enjoyed what I did and luckily I was able to climb the ladder at a very young age. I was supervising people by the time I was 19, and I was supervising a production plant of a big factory when I was studying industrial engineering on my first year, and I was only like 20 years old. And I was happy.  

Denzil MohammedYou were all set. Why did you need to move?  

Carlos CastroYeah, exactly. Then we had a civil war going on really bad. That was the military against the leftwing activists from Cuba and Nicaragua, and it become a terrible civil war. You found people decapitated with the hair stuck on the fences. It was horrifying. And me being the eldest of my siblings, I had the opportunity that some of my middle school classmates gave me to come to the U.S., of course illegally because we had no chance of getting a visa. So I thought really quick because he asked the question on me, “Why don’t you go to the U.S., work for a couple of years, learn English, and maybe by then the war will be over, and then you can provide for your siblings and your mom and your dad? I had a job there in the unions and the guerrillas were taking over and shutting down the factories. As a matter of fact, the factory where I worked, it was actually one of three that were still open. So I thought, “This is gonna collapse any minute,” and I took that opportunity. I came with a coyotea smuggler, and I got caught across the border, so I got deported. After I spent a month and a half in detention, I got to El Salvador at midnight when they dropped me there, and then I hid for a week and then got more money. I found my motorcycle and I headed back with a cousin, and we went across Mexico and across the border. Luckily we made it and that’s how I’m here. The first year, all I did was save money to buy my ticket back to El Salvador [laughs] because I wasn’t really enjoying. My wife was in El Salvador with my little kid that was one year old when I left, so all I wanted is to get back to El Salvador. But then I got the opportunity of working in construction, and I was really good. I am really good in construction, I love it. I enjoyed since I was a little kid. So that was my ticket to success. I was able to save for my house, and then I moved on to set up my own company with the customers that my boss couldn’t serve, he would give them to me, so he helped me. Actually, he signed our job certification for my wife, and then by my wife getting her visa, my kid and myself could get a visa. So actually she came a year after I was here. I brought her in through the border, she got caught, she was in jail, but we were able to get her out of jail through an organization and into here. And that’s how she came to work for the architect, my boss, and I asked him and he agreed to sign our papers. 

Denzil Mohammed: With things being so terrible, and during a civil war in your country, and as you said, decapitated heads in the streets, it’s something that we here in the U.S. can’t even fathom, it’s something so distant to us. And yet that was your daily reality. Who would not want to escape something like that? I will bring it to the present day where you went from 1,000 square feet to 75,000 square feet with Todos Supermarket in Woodbridge, Virginia. You basically realized that there was a food desert for recent migrants to that area and ended up taking over the giant supermarket, what we in Boston here call Stop & Shop. You’re involved in several initiatives in your community, and one of them is helping a nonprofit called the Hispanic Organization for Leadership and Actionor HOLA, which works to engage and empower the Latino community. Describe your work with HOLAWhy is it important and what benefits have you seen arise from it? 

Carlos Castro: Well, HOLA was created like 20 years ago by a visionary chairman of the board, Sean Connaughton, here in Prince William County. He saw the need because of the growth of the community. He said, “You need to have an organization. Basically our idea is to develop leadership, to get people into the community, to participate, to be part of the mainstream community little by little. So we have focused our effort in being a center of information, and bringing information to the community by creating events where the community show up and the agencies that are in the county show up. And then we talk about everything that is at their disposal in the county or state government. We want to focus in leadership development. We want to make sure that we create resilient communities that are selfdependent, that are not dependent of other organizations or the government, but actually on their own, you know, basically leaders.  

Denzil MohammedSo the result of that has been recentlyarrived or almost recentlyarrived migrants to the area being part of building up the community by taking on these leadership roles. It brings me to a point that is a sticking point for a lot of U.S.-born people. I read a recent article, well from 2017, that mentioned 90 percent of your employees are Hispanic. Respond to questions about why you and other business owners tend to hire people of similar ethnic background. Does that tie into what you were just talking about, building up resiliency, meaningful job opportunities and that kind of thing? 

Carlos Castro: Generally, you want to have people to work for you that you trust, and the people from your country are the first people that you trust, whether it’s a relative or friend or somebody, and it takes a while to build a business. So that’s how we ended up hiring people that speak Spanish. But the other problem that we have as immigrant companies, or what do you call it, international companies or ethnic companies, let’s say regular Americans or people from other groups that are not used to work with Latinos, they don’t see their future in any company. Let me give you an example. Once I hired the daughter of one of my customers as my personal assistant, and she was asked, “Why would you go to work there? Why don’t you go to another American company that you have a better future? And at some point I ran a campaign. I thought in order for me to grow, I need to attract more people, or different groups. So I ran a campaign to hire managers, and I had a good response of people. By the time we set up the first interview, it was kind of sad to see that people park their car, go around, look into the store, walk around the store and then walk back out. At that point, I realized I’m not gonna attract American people to work for me. I mean, we’re a stinky little grocery store, what do I think? And then I decided I’m gonna put my efforts to make sure that my people get the opportunity. 

Denzil Mohammed: That is so interesting. And I don’t think any U.S.-born person would be thinking like that. Would an American want to go to work for the Hispanic grocery store out there in Woodbridge? What do they know about oxtail, for instance? What do they know about halal meat? That is really interesting, so thank you for shedding light on that as an immigrant and minority business owner. That was really great. 

Carlos Castro: Thank you.  

Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned your father earlier, and it’s clear he’s had a very profound impact on your life as not just a business owner, but as a man. What has been the influence of him on your work? I know from previous interactions with you, you mentioned he was very strict, but he also had a set of principles and values, right? 

Carlos Castro: Yes. You know, that’s pretty much it, it’s about principles and values. My father didn’t have the opportunity to go to school. He actually rebelled against my grandparents because he was the son of the maid, so he wasn’t really part of the family, and they wouldn’t give him the opportunity to go to school. So he left the house when he was probably 12, and then he met people along the way, because he was very charismatic, and he made some good friends and people taught him. He was a genius in a way. He learned to be a builder and he never went to 12th grade. Actually he finished 12th grade when he was married to my mom, and he was like 40 some years [old]. And I enjoyed so muchhis boss was probably a young architect or a young engineer, and when they told me, “Whatever I know, I know it because your fatherI went to school, I have a lot of knowledge, but I don’t know how to do these things, and he taught me. And so he was very good at thatparticularly in the structures. He study at night and he kind of look at everything. He was able to go through a set of blueprints and have a list of all the errors that were in those blueprints and give it to the architect, “We need to fix it.” And like I said, he was a perfectionist, so he demanded from us kind of the same thing that he demanded from himself. 

Denzil Mohammed: I’m so happy that you came here to the U.S., as you say, with a coyote, illegally. Detained, deported, came back. You had that persistence and that led to you being able to have the opportunity that you obviously did not have in El Salvador at the time, to be able to put your hard work to use and let it result in something. And it resulted in dishwashing, and janitorial, and then construction, then owning your own construction company, then owning your first small supermarket. And now Todos is a giant, let’s put it that way. What are your views on the United States as a home for immigrants? 

Carlos Castro: It’s a place that I dream about. I didn’t think that the [inaudible] where you get a shovel and you shovel dollars into your pocket, but I thought that it was a place where there is good people that can help you succeed. And that has been my experience. People helped me along the way. I was not asking a lot of the time that people came to my rescue. Very goodhearted people in America, and I think we need to keep that spirit. As new immigrants, we need to help others to achieve their dreams, so that we give others the opportunities that were given to us. For immigrants right now it’s very difficult. As we all know, there is people driving their cars into a crowd, or just shooting somebody or hating you for no reason. I think as immigrants, we have the obligation to make sure that we get enculturated with the rest of the community that live around us. I think it’s still the best place on earth if you want to actually succeed, if you want to make something about yourself. As long as you don’t find anything to come up with excuses. Excuses are not allowed if you want to succeed in the U.S.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship, contributions and research produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Got comments, questions, know someone we should talk to? Email denzil [at] Thanks for joining us for this week’s incredible story of one immigrant’s resilience, success and contribution. Next Thursday at noon, we talk with Jeff Farrah, General Counsel for the National Venture Capital Association, about why immigrants and JobMakers like Carlos have virtually no avenue of migrating or remaining in the U.S., an outdated but fixable immigration system that doesn’t adequately serve America’s needs. I’m Denzil Mohammed, and thank you for listening to JobMakers.

Episode 34: Alex Nowrasteh [part two]

JobMakers podcast logo: Alex Nowrasteh on how immigration is a boon to the U.S.In part two of an interview with Alex Nowrasteh, the director of immigration studies at the Cato Institute, he shares research on how immigrants benefit all Americans. He also discusses where anti-immigrant myths come from and how they can be countered. Listen to the episode to find the facts behind the rhetoric.

Denzil MohammedI’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: In the last episode of JobMakers, we began a very enlightening conversation with the Cato Institute’s Alex Nowrasteh, their director of immigration studies, and a regular immigration commentator on Fox and other news outlets. He’s compiled a great booklet that you can download for free at or, called The Most Common Arguments Against Immigration and Why They’re Wrong. Last time, Alex laid out the facts for us on immigrants and immigration in the U.S., countering many of the false narratives we’ve been fed all our lives, and our ancestors fed. Facts like: public safety has increased as immigration to the U.S. has increased; immigrants aren’t a lot for the Democratic Party; as immigration increased, so did American prosperity. This week, Alex hones in on a fact that research has consistently found: that immigrants benefit Americans. And given his many years of speaking on this topic to anti-immigrant audiences, he gives us his insight on where anti-immigrant arguments come from, as you’ll find out in this week’s JobMakers. 

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Denzil MohammedWhere does all this misinformation or disinformation come from? I spoke to Professor James Witte from George Mason University’s Institute for Immigration Research, and he made very clear that there’s something called misinformation and there’s something called disinformation. And you mentioned names like Mark Krikorian and Ann Coulter, who I would argue are possibly spreading disinformation, actively doing that. People are being fed certain messages in their minds, and if they believe certain things as facts, for instance, the crime, where does it come from? You’ve been talking to this audience for a long time. 

Alex Nowrasteh: I think it comes from many different places. I think part of it is, people focus on anecdotes and they don’t focus on data. So they’ll look at the newspaper and see some horrible crime committed by somebody who is an immigrant, and they focus on that, they don’t look at the data behind it. And we do that with everything, by the way. It’s a real problem with human cognition and perception, it’s a big systemic problem. So I think that really pollutes this debate a lot, if people focus on anecdotes and on those cases. I think some of it also comes from the way that our brains are hardwired. Our ancestors grew up in caves, on the savannas of Africa and other places, and they evolved for that kind of environment where resources are fixed. There’s only so many buffalo running around that we can hunt to feed ourselves and our family. So in that kind of environment where resources are fixed, a new person coming in, or a new group, really does lead to a decrease in resources for everybody, really does make your group poor. And so you view outsiders with suspicion, you view new people with suspicion, it’s a dangerous thing. But we live in a modern world. We have free markets, we have trade, we have capitalism, we have what’s called positive sum growth. People are creators, we create things, we’re not just taking animals from the environment to eat or clothe ourselves. We’re making goods and services from raw materials and from the ingenuity of the human brain. And so what’s happened is our minds are just not evolved. Our economy has evolved faster than our minds have kept up. And as a result of that, we have a very primitive mindset where we just see new people, whether they’re from abroad or whether they’re births or whatnot, as taking away from us. And it’s a primitive mindset, it’s an incorrect mindset. And I think part of it is a lot of people who are anti-immigrant don’t actually want to tell you why, or they don’t actually know why. They just don’t like foreigners, and they look for a reason to justify why they don’t like foreigners and they go down this list. So one of the things that I’m worried about is they might say, I don’t like immigrants because they take our jobs and lower our wages, and I respond to that. And then they go on to the next one, well, immigrants are going to take welfare, and I respond to that. And they go, well, they’re going to be criminals and terrorists,” and I go down the list, and I worry that I’m not actually responding to the real reason. They’re just giving me what they think are acceptable reasons. And so we’re doing this whole long song and dance where we’re not really responding to what the other person is saying or really thinking, and that’s just a horrible, difficult way to talk about it. I suspect that a lot of the reason why people don’t like immigrants is they just don’t like foreigners, and it’s really, really hard to say that without sounding like a xenophobe, and people don’t want to sound like xenophobespeople who don’t like immigrants. And so it makes it impossible to have this discussion. So in a way, it’s sort of like political correctness and patriotic correctness, which is the right-wing variety, makes it very difficult to have an honest conversation about immigration. But I will say, I think there’s one thing that people don’t talk about very much that I think matters a lot, and this is chaos. I think most people dislike and hate chaos, and they view our immigration system, they view what happens on the border, they view all this stuff as chaos. And if people see chaos, they become immediately turned off. They hate it and they want to clamp down on whatever that chaotic thing is. You see it with the drug war, you see it with crime, you see it with everything else. So as long as we have a chaotic border, people are going to be really upset about immigration. Even though the border has very little to do with the total immigration debate, it’s a very small feature of it, but it bleeds over on everything else. But the catch22 is, we can’t get control of the border until we let more people in legally, but we can’t let more people in legally until people think that there’s no chaos on the border! 

Denzil MohammedWe know visa overstays, for instance, traditionally account for more unauthorized immigration in the U.S. There’s no focus on that. Legal immigration is a huge deal, people getting their green cards, being naturalized every year, entering our workforce. There’s no focus on that. But focusing on the chaos is what has engendered this kind of disposition among people. And you brought up the idea of anecdotes versus data and research. The border, individual crimes, alleged rape in Virginia high school, things like that, those are the things that people remember. They don’t remember that 13.7 percent of the U.S. population is foreignborn. They still believe in what they hear, that it’s an invasion and an infestation, it’s probably closer to 50 percent, doubting the census numbers because somehow the census may be biased. We’re up against a lot here, Alex, so I don’t envy your work at all. 

Alex Nowrasteh: Oh, it’s a challenge. What’s interesting is the late economist Alberto Alesina did a bunch of surveys in Europe and the United States, and he just asked about some factual questions first. He was like, what percentage of the population is foreignborn,” “what percentage are immigrants, et cetera. And then he asked them what they thought about immigration policy, and one of the things he found is that people who are very opposed to immigration and immigrants just greatly exaggerate the percentage of the population that’s foreignborn. They will exaggerate by a factor of three or four. So they’ll think the immigrant population is 60 percent when it’s really like 14 percent. So people are not just wrong and misperceiving things, they are twisting their view of facts to fit that. I mean, there is no city in America where it’s 60 percent foreignborn, right? The largest is just over 40 percent in Miami. To be wrong by 50 percent upwards from that shows a level of twisting reality to fit your partisan biases to an extent that is worrying. 

Denzil Mohammed: One of the difficulties in doing research on immigration, you pointed out earlier that they don’t ask your immigration status when you go to court, when you’re picked up for something. It’s difficult to show that immigration causes certain things, for instance, economic revitalization of all the metro areas since the sixties, it’s because immigrants moved in. Why is it so difficult as you as a researcher and so many others out there to parse out definitively about immigration? 

Alex Nowrasteh: So part of the problem is there’s a lot of things going on. Immigrants, just to give you an example, they increase the supply side of the economy. More workers, increased supply side, because that means more things can be made. There’s more productive resources in the United States. But is that causing all the increase, or is the demand for these workers, by an inherently growing U.S. economy, causing that? And then the immigrants are just going to the demand and then they’re rising together? So it’s just really hard to parse that. It’s what economists called causal inference, which is trying to tease out what causally happens there. We can definitely find that demand plays a big role. People are coming to the U.S. because wages are high and they’re much more productive here. But after the immigrants get here, they increase productivity, they increase the wages of native-born Americans because immigrants are not just workers, they’re also consumers, they buy things. And by buying things, that’s more customers, and having more customers means that American workers who are supplying these goods and services to new customers become more productive because the prices go up for these goods and services. It’s just this miraculous new thing. What we see across economies around the world is more people means more productivity, more people making things, more people buying things. And the measure of your wealth is how many things and goods and services you have access to. It’s not the number on your bank account, it’s how many things you can get with that number in your bank account. Immigrants increase the supply of stuff dramatically, and that’s something that we just lose sight of. But the evidence is overwhelming. Even George Borjas, who is the most skeptical of immigration, of the benefits in the United States, of any economist around who is published in the [inaudible], even he admits, using the evidence in the way that he does through his sort of analysis, immigrants increase the amount of production in the United States by somewhere around one quarter to one half of a percentage point of GDP. So you’re talking between like $60 and $90 billion a year in additional stuff made by nativeborn Americans just by immigrants being here. Does not include at all the roughly 12 to 15 percent of GDP that immigrants produce in themselves, but they just make Americans more productive by being here. 

Denzil Mohammed: So issues like economics, labor, manufacturing, but then you get into also things like housing values, even crime. We look at the preponderance of evidence and we see that there is some sort of relation, even though we can’t say directly some immigration causes X or Y. And with the crime, immigration goes up, crime goes down. Immigrants move into areas with low rent, over a generation they build up storefronts, they get safer sidewalks, they start bringing in customers to the nail salons, things like that. 

Alex Nowrasteh: If you look to the places where immigrants go, you see this happening. You don’t see immigrants going to places in West Virginia or in Eastern Kentucky or other places that are suffering. And part of the reason they’re not going there is those places are doing poorly, but those places are also doing poorly because immigrants aren’t going there and they can’t make these investments in public safety or start new businesses. They’re going to cities and suburbs around the country that are growing well and making a positive contribution.

Denzil Mohammed: Immigrants go where the jobs are. I mean, that’s why suddenly immigrants are going to the Dakotas, they never went there before. They’re going to Nebraska in meatpacking plants. They’re filling incredible voids, and we saw that a lot during the pandemic in terms of things like agriculture and food supply. Immigrants are almost 50 percent of our agriculture workers. What would we have done? What position would we have been in without that massive, disproportionately large essential workforce? And in terms of agriculture and other areas, many of them are undocumented, right? 

Alex Nowrasteh: Yeah. Many of them are unauthorized immigrants in a lot of these places. The most mobile immigrants in the U.S. economy that is willing to move from one area to another at the drop of a hat are usually unauthorized or unlawful immigrants in the United States. And that is something that’s really underappreciated, having this large mobile workforce is dramatically positive. And one of the interesting things, many of us had to work remotely for a while during the pandemic, a lot of white collar workers had to work remotely. And if it weren’t for the large number of H-1B visa holders, highskilled temporary workers, many of whom worked in IT making that possible for us, it would have been much harder for a lot of midrange and higher income people to work remotely like they were able to. Simagine the world without these hundreds of thousands of H-1B workers already working here in the United States, making IT services more available to American firms. A lot of smaller businesses probably would’ve shut down entirely. A lot of big companies would have had a lot of trouble, if not had to shut down entirely, or they would have had to outsource all these services to other countries around the world. And we didn’t have to do that nearly as much because we have such a large pool of talented workers on the H-1B visa. 

Denzil Mohammed: Because we attract and hopefully retain talent. And might I just add, we are recording this podcast over Zoom, and we have a highskilled immigrant to thank for that. You’re from Southern California. You live in DC now. You sound pretty American to me, but you have your own sort of immigration story, don’t you? 

Alex Nowrasteh: Yeah. I mean, the thing is we all do as Americans. Just about a 100 percent of us have an ancestor in the last several centuries who came here from somewhere else. My paternal grandparents immigrated from Iran in the late 1940s. My father was born here in Wisconsin, so he’s this tall, dark, swarthy guy who looks Iranian, who talks with a slightly Oshkosh accent, it’s kind of hilarious. And he moved to LA to work in the film business. My mother’s family has been here, the first one in their family came in the late 1600s. But then some left, went to Canada, came back, others came from Europe, French Jews from Europe, Germans, basically a whole mess of Western European Jews and Protestants coming over at different times. And then they both grew up in the Midwest and then moved to California to work in the film industry, met out here. And then my brother and I, we’re technically I guess third generation because the stuff that we grew up in, but I don’t speak Farsi, I’ve never been to Iran. I eat the food every once in a while, but frankly I eat Italian food more, and Mexican food more, and Thai food more, and Chinese food more. So I’m really just this American mutt with a really hard to pronounce last name, and basically people view me as ethnically ambiguous, which, you know, I’m fine. I guess I am ethnically ambiguous, that’s being an American. And my labor on this issue is not a labor born of personal experience. I grew up around lots of immigrants in Southern California, that’s the norm to me, it feels great, but I don’t have a personal experience or something troubling that happened to me. It’s partly because I’m sort of a patriotic American and this is something that really makes America different, and because of my background as a social scientist because immigration is so fascinating, and because immigration is something where if we’re able to liberalize it in the United States, allow more legal immigrants to come in, it’s worth tens of trillions of dollars to our economy in the world. 

Denzil Mohammed: That, plus the access to Thai food and Mexican food and Italian food and Chinese food. 

Alex Nowrasteh: Oh, yeah. 

Denzil Mohammed: Which we are so lucky to have in the U.S. because of immigration. We take for granted all these things that we’re afforded that people in other countries aren’t, and we have this buffet, this smorgasbord, of things to choose from every single day, because that’s what immigration gave us. So people can download The Most Common Arguments Against Immigration and Why They’re Wrong. It’s a really beautiful read, it’s very visual, nothing is complexly stated. It’s free to download, you can get it at and also on the Cato Institute’s website. Any last comments about this particular project? 

Alex Nowrasteh: So this project is the combination of over a decade of my work and research on this, bringing together tens of thousands of different pages of research written by other scholars and doing original research myself. So if you want to see the highlights of what I’ve learned on this topic for a long career, with only spending maybe 20 minutes of reading, this is the thing for you to get. I highly recommend it. So please check it out, download it, and if you have any questions or other follow up, send me an email. You can find my email on Cato’s website at 

Denzil Mohammed: And soon I’m going to be talking to one of your colleagues, Johan Norberg, the author of Open: The Story of Human Progressand I think well explore some of these themes further. Alex Nowrasteh, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers. 

Alex Nowrasteh: Thanks a lot for having me, it was a real pleasure. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant contributions, issues and research produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Got comments, questions, know someone we should talk to? Email Thanks for joining us for this week’s revealing discussion on how immigrants benefit all of us. Next Thursday at noon, we’ll meet one of those immigrantsCarlos Castro. His businesses in Virginia have employed hundreds of people over decades, a far cry from his humble beginnings in El Salvador, where there were no such opportunities, as you’ll learn in the next JobMakers podcast. 

Episode 33: Alex Nowrasteh [part one]

JobMakers podcast logo: Alex Nowrasteh on what we get wrong about immigrantsAs director of immigration studies at the Cato Institute, Alex Nowrasteh has spent years studying the positive impact of immigrants on the United States. In the first half of a two part episode, Nowrasteh discusses how myths about immigrants have evolved and persisted throughout American history and into the present. Listen to his JobMakers episode to discover the truth behind many canards about immigration.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: For time immemorial, we’ve been hearing the same messages. ‘Immigrants take this’ or ‘Immigrants increase that’ or ‘Immigrants have used this’. I say time immemorial because the same things said of immigrants today were said of immigrants a hundred years ago. No matter the group, whether Irish or Italian, Mexican or Haitian, those already living here uttered the same things. For Alex Nowrasteh, the Cato Institute’s director of immigration studies, he’s heard it all before; over and over again. So last summer, he compiled a quick and easy publication. Anyone can download it, it’s called ‘The Most Common Arguments Against Immigration and Why They’re Wrong’. You can get it at Cato’s website or In it, Alex lays out in simple terms, researched responses to anti-immigrant fabrications like ‘Today’s immigrants don’t assimilate like immigrants from before’ and ‘Immigrants are a major source of crime’ and ‘Immigrants won’t vote for the Republican party’. This is the first part of our conversation. And some of what you’re about to hear might surprise you. Alex knows that, but getting truth and facts out there is paramount in advancing sensible immigration policies that benefit all Americans, new or old, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Alex Nowrasteh from the Cato Institute, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. How are you?

Alex Nowrasteh: Great! I’m doing well. Thanks a lot for having me! I’m looking forward to this.

Denzil Mohammed: So you recently released a report on the most common arguments against immigration and why they’re wrong. Why did you feel the need to do this?

Alex Nowrasteh: So I’ve been speaking and writing about immigration for over a decade and I basically get the same questions every time. And I figured these questions are probably the ones that everybody has about immigration. So it would just be very convenient for everybody if I wrote down my quick answers to all of them, with citations and links to other research, to give people out there who are getting these questions but don’t have the benefit of having done years and years of research on each of them like I have. So that’s what basically gave me this impetus, sort of like a cheat sheet for everybody to know what I’m thinking whenever I get these questions.

Denzil Mohammed: One of the biggest misconceptions that I found in your report was the one on voting, that immigrants are automatically going to vote blue. That is not necessarily true. California is a good example of that. California and Texas, the two states with the largest immigrant populations, right?

Alex Nowrasteh: Yeah, that’s right. California and Texas. And interestingly, part of the argument against voting or the idea that immigrants and their kids are going to vote for the democratic party in perpetuity forever is it’s partly focused on immigration, of course. It’s also focused on largely Hispanics. It’s the idea that Hispanics, whether they’re native-born or foreign-born or just this permanent blue voting bloc. And if you look back at history, if you look at what’s going on today with political realignment that’s just simply not true. There’s so much evidence to the contrary that it’s kind of overwhelming, but what we really hear is this crazy narrative about how this is some new voting bloc in Porter by the Democrats, supposedly, to create sort of Democratic Party dominance, which, I don’t know when that’s ever existed since the 1960s. And I can talk about why, I mean, the history of this is kind of fascinating. So I’m from California. And when I was young, in 1994, there was a debate, a statewide proposition that everyone gets to vote on called Proposition 187. And Prop 187 did two things. One was that it denied welfare benefits and other government benefits to all unlawful or illegal immigrants in the state. And then the second thing was it told every single state official that if they suspect that somebody is an unlawful or illegal immigrant, they have to report that person to the INS at the time for deportation. And what happened was, in 1994, this was pushed by the then governor Pete Wilson, who was Republican. He was facing a pretty hard reelection campaign in 1994 in California; the economy wasn’t doing well, the end of the cold war really hurt a lot of defense industries in California. So he was facing an uphill battle. And so he latched on to this Proposition 187 as a way to galvanize voters to support him so that he could win reelection. And what’s fascinating is you take a look at this, in 1990, when peoples and first ran, he basically split the Hispanic vote on the state level with Democrats. Basically he got 47 percent. The  Democrats got 48 percent. 1990, it switches. Pete Wilson got 25 percent, Democrat got 70 percent, but Pete Wilson barely pulled it out because he got so many more votes from black Americans, white Americans and Asian Americans. But then you fast forward to 1998, and you see that Hispanic vote for Republicans keeps going down. It goes down to like 17 percent. And a state like California, where the Hispanic population grows from like 10 percent in 1970 to 40 percent around the year 2005, that’s a devastating shift. And basically what happened was the Republican Party in California in my home state decided, ‘We really needed to win this election in 1984, let’s piss off the largest demographic in the state that’s growing the fastest and be surprised when we lose basically every election after that, except when Arnold Schwarzenegger is running.’

Denzil Mohammed: So you concluded based on this, that how immigrants vote depends on how the party treats them, particularly Hispanic voters.

Alex Nowrasteh: Yeah. Surprisingly, right? No, I’m just joking. I mean, it’s obviously not surprising, human beings don’t want to vote for people who hate them. James Carville, the Democratic strategist has said this, point blank. If voters think that you hate them, they won’t vote for you.

Denzil Mohammed: You talk about assimilation, and that’s, of course, one of the biggest myths when it comes to immigration; that today’s immigrants don’t assimilate as immigrants from the past did. How are they wrong?

Alex Nowrasteh: So assimilation, we basically measure it as whether the immigrant or the immigrant’s kids or grandkids: how similar they are to Americans who’ve been here for much longer period of time on issues like education, income; civic participation, which includes voting, volunteering whether they nationalize, whether they call themselves American and consider themselves to be American. And on these measures from survey questions that go back, in some cases over a hundred years, what we see is that basically, by the third generation, that is, the grandchildren of the immigrants themselves, their grandchildren across the board, on average, are basically identical to Americans who have been here for four or longer generations in terms of all of these measures. Now, some groups take a little bit longer than others. There are a lot of Hispanic immigrant groups, because, when they come here, they have a little bit less education, it takes a little bit of a while to earn that education and pass it on to their kids. That can take three, sometimes four generations. With Asian immigrants it’s basically the first or second generation because they typically come here with higher education level. They already speak English when they arrive and that sort of jumpstarts assimilation. And then what we’ve also seen is a lot of intermarriage. So a lot of Hispanic immigrants or Asian immigrants will marry a non-Hispanic or non-Asian American. The kids will be mixed. Their kids won’t self-identify as that ethnic minority or racial minority. And because of this intermarriage, what happens is that basically pushes along assimilation. It speeds it up by an extra generation. So I like to call it ‘assimilation of the altar’. And that’s something that happened in the past; that’s what happened with Irish, with Italian immigrants, with German immigrants. Like if you notice in this conversation, a lot of what we’re seeing today is what people were noticing, a hundred or 130 years ago with the immigrant groups that were coming then. Is this happening with a whole new group of people in the United States? And it turns out it’s not that different. And in some ways, it’s a little faster. So it took on average, the Irish about five generations to assimilate by our measures. And that’s probably because the Irish, when they came here, they were especially poor, especially devastated, especially poorly educated and coming from a real backwards part of Europe at that time. They’ve caught up, Ireland’s caught up, but back then, it was really backwards by comparison to the United States. They didn’t even use money in large parts of Ireland because there was basically a feudal economy where you would pay your landlord in produce that you made from your farm. And then you get shoved into industrial aged New York. Crazy, right? Crazy transition. But if you think about today, like an immigrant from Mexico or from India or from Nigeria, they don’t have to learn how to read a clock. They don’t have to learn how to use money. They don’t have to learn how to rent an apartment. They know all these things already and they have some exposure to American culture through TV and music and everything else. So, in a sense, there’s a ton of pre-assimilation going on around the world because American culture is so dominant. The English language is just so dominant globally that it really helps jump start that process. So if I were looking backwards at time from the year 3000, I would say the assimilation trends in the United States around the year 2021 are far superior to what they were in the United States in the year 1921. I’m just that much more optimistic about it.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s fascinating. Clearly, this has happened before. This is a natural phenomenon that happens when people move and whether they came from Ireland or from Italy or from Guatemala, it’s probably going to follow the same trajectory. One of the other biggest misconceptions that you addressed is on crime. And it’s interesting to note that as populations have increased in the U.S., that’s in Metro areas, violent crime rates have gone down. Yet, we’ve seen this mushrooming of immigration to the U.S. since the late sixties. Tell me a little bit about that. And how do you counter people who come with other statistics about immigrants and crime that totally contradict yours?

Alex Nowrasteh: Yeah. So what you said is absolutely right; going back to the late 19th century, there have been about half a dozen different government commissions that have studied the issues of immigrant assimilation in the United States. And most of these commissions have been stacked against immigration. The Alibi Congress and basically nativists are put on the boards to study these things. But what’s remarkable is, every time, from the early 20th century, from the Dillingham commission, which recommended quotas to keep out Southern and Eastern Europeans because they were genetically inferior, supposedly. Up until the Barbara Jordan commission in the 1990s, that took a look at immigration, also stacked with a bunch of people who are anti-immigration on that commission. Every single one of them, they say a bunch of negative things about immigration, but they have all admitted that immigrants are much less likely to commit crimes than the native-born Americans and much less likely to be incarcerated. So this is something that goes back over a century; this finding and continues to today. In fact, when you take a look at the census data, because we do have census data on crime, and we take a look at those who are incarcerated in American prisons, the foreign-born population in prison, as a percentage, is below the percentage of nationwide population. And we know that for a fact. That is uncontested. What other people say, though, is ‘I may believe, Alex, that legal immigrants have a much lower crime rate,’ but then they say ‘Illegal immigrants have a much higher crime rate, though.’ And they say that because, well, they broke immigration laws. So they must be more likely to commit crimes rather than just these immigration law violations. And Ann Coulter in her book, Adios America, which, and I say this unironically, is actually a great book because you’ll understand what an anti-immigration person thinks about all this stuff. In very clear detail. I learned more from that book, I think, than any other book on immigration, surprisingly. And what she said is, ‘Illegal immigration is a huge source of crime. And the reason why you know that is because no state counts criminal activity or convictions or arrests by immigration status.’ And she has this funny line in her book where she says, ‘Nielsen American census bureau people know how many pigs are being raised on American farms, but you’re telling me they don’t know how many criminals were arrested or illegal immigrants? Of course they’re hiding it!’ And
she says they’re hiding it to cover up some great things.

Denzil Mohammed: That is very scientific, by the way.

Alex Nowrasteh: Oh yeah. Very scientific criticism. It’s just this nativist paranoia. But what’s fascinating is, she’s right about 49 states. 49 states do not count crime or convictions or arrests by immigration status, but one state dots. And that’s the state of
Texas, which is the best state to measure for this. It’s a border state. It has one of the greatest numbers of immigrants in the country. The second greatest number of immigrants in the country are in Texas. The second largest unlawful or illegal immigrant population is in Texas and a lot of them are Hispanic, which, when people talk about crime and immigration, they’re mainly talking about Hispanic immigrants. They’re not really complaining about Asian immigrants. They’re complaining about Hispanic immigrants. And, even better, Texas has been governed by Republicans for about 27 years nonstop. So there’s no argument you can make about some kind of liberal conspiracy to cover up illegal immigrant crime, right? They’ll want to report it. And what does it show? You take a look at the Texas state data on this. You take a look at criminal convictions committed by people by immigration status. You’ll find that illegal immigrants have a criminal conviction rate about 37 percent below that of native-born Americans and legal immigrants have one that’s 57 percent below native-born Americans. And that’s as a percentage of each subpopulation. So just to give you an example, the native-born American criminal conviction rate, 2019 was 1,190 convictions for every 100,000 native-born Americans. For illegal immigrants, it was 749 convictions for illegal immigrants for every 100,000 and for legal immigrants who was 510 for every 100,000. So it’s just clear as daylight that these numbers line up in an incredible way. And when you take a look at different crimes like homicide, when you take a look at sex crimes, when you take a look at larceny, when you take a look at all these crimes, you go down the list and about the same relationship holds. Legal immigrants and illegal immigrants are much less likely to commit homicides and be convicted of them or arrested for them. Well, larceny it’s the same thing. Sex crimes is the same thing. So this is just across the board. We take a look at this and this is what holds and people spend a lot of time arguing about why this is the case, but we’ve come to the point now where people don’t really dispute that this is the case, that legal immigrants and illegal immigrants have a much lower crime rate. This has been a sea change in opinion the last couple of years, but I finally convinced people, even Mark Krikorian, I even convinced him. He has this great quote in the Dallas Morning News where somebody asked him about my paper. And he said, ‘Oh yeah, there’s a lot of evidence that illegal immigrants have a much lower crime rate than native-born Americans.’ The only response they have is, ‘Well, one is too many.’ And if you want to talk about how to allocate scarce law enforcement resources to diminish crime, knowing which populations, by immigration status, are the most dangerous, is worth knowing. Because we only have so many police officers, so many resources to develop the best. And if you really want to make an impact on crime, you should police more the native born population; which, I’m sorry to say, us native born Americans are super crime prone and super more likely to kill each other, than you should police illegal immigrants or legal immigrants.

Denzil Mohammed: That is such a powerful point. It better resonates because this is what the data has consistently shown. And to remind listeners that, for instance, authorized immigrants; people who are hoping for their green cards, for instance, they walk a very, very tight rope when it comes to committing crimes. They can be instantly deported if they commit certain kinds of crimes. So they have additional evidence to stay on the side of public safety versus U.S. boards who don’t have that kind of risk.

Alex Nowrasteh: Yeah, that’s right. Gary Becker, who’s a late Nobel Prize winning economist. He studied the economics of crime and he said, ’If you want to understand the turrets for crime, you need to multiply the chance of being caught times the punishment. And that will basically be the deterrence.’ And the thing is, for any crime, any immigrant, whether unlawful or legal, who is not a citizen of the United States, the punishment of being caught for committing community crime is much greater because the punishment is they get to serve their prison sentence, and then they get deported. And being deported is not technically a crime under U.S. law, but from the perspective of the immigrant, it is oftentimes a much bigger punishment than being in prison. And as a result of that, the deterrence factor is enormous. And as a result of that, people who decide to become immigrants are just going to be those types of people who just don’t really want to commit crimes because they’re thinking ahead. And the one thing we know about criminals is they don’t really think ahead. And immigrants, one of the things we do know is they’re doing it for the future, for themselves and they really think ahead.

Denzil Mohammed: They do it for the future. They want to establish a better life for themselves and their kids. Putting that in jeopardy, they don’t want to do that. That’s not in the equation. And thinking long-term that’s a fascinating way to position immigrants. And that’s really very true.

Alex Nowrasteh: It’s like an investment. It’s like an investment that they make in themselves and in the United States, as a result. The median immigrant who comes here to the United States from a country around the world can expect a four fold increase in income, adjusting for cost of living. That is tremendous. I’ve never had a job where one job to the next is a fourfold increase. I just can’t imagine. And a fourfold increase for somebody from Latin America or from Africa or from Asia. That’s a lot bigger difference in terms of the standard of living than a four fold increase for me would be. Like you increase my income by a factor of four, I’ll buy another house or something like that. I’ll fly first class. That’s nice, right? But it’s not going to be the difference between me sending my kids to school or not. It’s not the difference between seeing a doctor when I’m sick and not. It’s not the difference between me being able to retire at some point and not. That’s what these people face. So it is tremendous investment in themselves. And as a result, they invest in the United States! And it’s better for all of us.

Denzil Mohammed: Better for all of us. they want better paying jobs, they want to climb the ladder, they want to make more money. They pay more in taxes as a result. Immigrants or refugees give back more than the benefits that they initially received.
JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant contributions, history topics and research produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and The Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thanks for joining us for today’s gripping discussion on the facts to combat all those anti-immigrant messages. If you have feedback or know someone we should talk to, email Denzil, that’s D-E-N-Z-I-L (at) We’re going to be off for Thanksgiving but back on December 2nd, when Alex Nowrasteh discusses undocumented immigrants, anti-immigration research and Ann Coulter in the next Jobmakers.

Episode 32: Larry Kim

JobMakers podcast logo: Larry Kim's one-way ticket to the American DreamLarry Kim’s parents fled from Korea to Canada following the Korean War, and he followed in their footsteps by moving to the United States. Kim considers starting multiple highly successful marketing tech companies to be a “means to an end.” His true passion is helping people pursue their own American Dream. Learn how he accomplishes this by employing hundreds of people and mentoring entrepreneurs around the world in this episode of JobMakers!

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: A one way ticket. That’s migrating. What you do when you get there is up to you because you’ve left your family and other supports behind. That’s an immigrant. For Larry Kim, founder of WordStream in Boston, which was acquired for $150 million, and of MobileMonkey, a chatbot marketing platform for market and customer support on Facebook messenger, web chat and SMS, that journey began when his parents fled to Canada after the Korean war on a one way ticket. That, in turn, gave him the opportunity to purchase his own one way ticket to the U.S. to fulfill his American dream. Larry is creating hundreds of meaningful jobs for Americans. Something he’s not only proud of but feels is at the core of his values, to give back to the country that gave him the opportunity to actualize bold new ideas. He doesn’t even believe in patents, instead publishing textbooks on software development to foster the freedom for everyone to innovate. Through his technology, he’s helped tens of thousands of companies to grow their businesses. And with nearly 750,000 followers on, he mentors budding entrepreneurs from around the world as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.  

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Denzil Mohammed: Larry Kim, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. How are you? 

Larry Kim: I’m doing great Denzil. How are you? 

Denzil Mohammed: I am excellent and I’m so glad we got to talk to you. You’re such a tremendous business owner and entrepreneur. A social media maverick. I remember back in 2019 when I met you, you were like two spots behind Hillary Clinton on the top writers on Remember that? 

Larry Kim: Oh yeah, she hasn’t been blogging for a while, so I’ve actually passed her. 

Denzil Mohammed: [laughing] There you go! So we met in 2019 at the eighth annual Barry M. Portnoy Immigrant Entrepreneur Awards, where you were awarded the winner in the “High-Tech Business” category by The Immigrant Learning Center, and you said, “This is the most meaningful honor of my entire professional career.” What did you mean by that? 

Larry Kim: Oh, sure. So, Denzil, when you’re an entrepreneur, or just any careerist, you’re going to get all sorts of crazy awards. Some of them are pretty superficial, like, “Having Lots of People to Follow on Social Media,” or these kinds of silliness. Or growth awards, like “Inc 5,000 Fastest Growing Companies in America.” Of course, it’s great to get any of these awards, but it’s important to understand that, well, my perspective on this is that the growth or the number of followers or whatever these other awards are based on, that’s a means to an end. That the true goal here is to create something of value and just ultimately create jobs and employment for people in the community so that they can better their lives and contribute back as productive members of society. So, to that end, I kind of view your industry or your entrepreneurship award as being the only award I’ve ever won that reflects my core belief system. And so that’s why I declared that this was the most meaningful award that I’ve ever been considered for and won in my career. It’s an honor and a privilege. 

Denzil Mohammed: When you say your core beliefs, what did that award get at for you? What did it speak to? 

Larry Kim: Why is it that entrepreneurs do what they do? You know? Why is it that so many of them are immigrants? And I think part of that is a life calling to provide. To help people to realize their full potential in life, by providing them a framework to be gaining valuable skills, get paid for it and advance to careers. And that is my calling in life. And just the structure by which I do this is by creating these products and companies and selling products. But that is a means to an end. That is what you see. But not the core motivating factor for me. 

Denzil Mohammed: Creating meaningful work, allowing people to advance in their careers, certainly…  

Larry Kim: More for families. Live the “American Dream.” I’ve employed over a thousand people in the last decade. And we don’t just hire people who already had jobs and they were already flying high. No, we look for these people like one or two years out of college, or in some cases, community college, or no college at all. And we train them how to sell things. We train them how to be a customer support rep. We take people from companies like Best Buy, floor salespeople, really blue-collar work. And I think we’re helping people refine their skills and become even more productive members of society. 

Denzil Mohammed: Well said. Allowing people to live out their American Dream. I want to get into your immigrant story. And it didn’t just start with you, right? It started with your family. 

Larry Kim: Oh, sure. Yes. So about 20 years ago, I immigrated to the United States from the far, far away country of Canada. It was a 45-minute flight from the Toronto airport. It was a one-way ticket, and I flew here following my last exam from college and started at a local startup here. And you know, you might say, “Well, that’s not a … Canada is like the 51st state,” or “This is not really a big journey.” But you’ve got to … if you take a step back, you think of the bigger picture. My parents started this journey back 40-50 years ago. They were just young children during the Korean War in the fifties. And they were refugees, walking hundreds of miles to avoid these conflict zones and carrying everything that they owned in a bag on their back and eating grass and drinking out of rivers to survive. And it was a pretty difficult environment and when they got a little older, they decided to immigrate to Canada. This would have been in the sixties or seventies. And they also booked a one-way ticket here with like 20 dollars in their pocket or something like that. So it’s just a continuation of that desire to want to provide something for your life, for your family, for your community. And you know, this was just sort of the last stop if you will. 

Denzil Mohammed: That’s just absolutely fascinating. So many Americans don’t know about these experiences that are in the backgrounds of immigrants today and refugees today. I’m glad that they made that move. It allowed you to be able to thrive and do better than they ever possibly imagined you would have if for instance, you were growing up in a war-torn country. Your journey as an entrepreneur, did you always know that you wanted to start a business? And, and just correct me if I’m wrong, your degree is in electrical engineering, right? And now you’re in digital marketing. 

Larry Kim: So, absolutely. It was obvious that I wanted to create a business from the very beginning. My early jobs were doing paperwork and building little recycling businesses in junior high and in high school. And you know, it was a situation where I knew I wanted to … oh, and my parents! My mother was an entrepreneur too. She was a piano teacher. So, she basically taught me everything about marketing. How to get clients, how to get students. “Don’t be the lowest cost piano teacher because then you’re going to get all the worst students. You have to charge a little bit more than everyone else.” She would teach me all of these lessons about how to run a business. That’s another thing about entrepreneurship. There’s usually some family influence, from a young age, where someone is teaching you the difference between being an employee versus an employer. But yes, I think I absolutely wanted to be this … you know, having a company or a business. It was just a situation where I didn’t have the skills or the idea of what to do … like finding that niche, finding the need in the marketplace to fill. And so, you just start off in a regular job and you learn skills. So, initially when I moved to Cambridge, it was to work for a marketing software company called Allaire which was later bought up by Macromedia. And because that was marketing software, I learned a lot about digital marketing. And so that’s where I was able to then identify some needs in the marketplace around search advertising and social media advertising in terms of products that you could build, in terms of being an engineer, an entrepreneur. I think that’s totally normal. Engineering of course is an applied science as opposed to a pure scientific endeavor. And so, you always have to take your engineering skills and apply it to some other area. Biotech or fintech or marketing software. 

Denzil Mohammed: So, what was it like in the early stages going out there, asking for money, developing your ideas, finding partners? 

Larry Kim: I mean, it’s kind of comical. I was like this 20-something with a lot of ideas and no contacts, not a lot of experience. And I just did cold emailing. If you go to a venture website it’ll say, “Do you want to partner with …”, there’s actually an alias on inquiries at “venture-company-dot-com.” So, that’s not the most ideal way to go about pitching. Ideally, you’d get some kind of recommendation or warm introduction from a portfolio CEO or something like that. But yeah! Just the cold emailing. And sure enough, surprisingly, we got a few dozen inquiries and that led to meetings. And you know, it didn’t happen overnight. But over a few years of getting rejected and trying again, I was able to both build a business that was fundable and find world-class investors to back the idea. 

Denzil Mohammed: So, describe MobileMonkey to us. What is it, what does it do? Why is it important?

Larry Kim: It’s a text messaging platform. It’s a very important mode of communication if you’re a business doing business-to-consumer marketing. So, if you’re a realtor, you’re selling to customers. These customers aren’t spending all day in Gmail or whatever. They’re just on-the-go on their mobile phones. And typically, they spend a good amount of time texting or using text platforms like WhatsApp or Instagram Direct Messaging or Facebook Messenger. And so, if you’re a business it’s kind of hard to generate inbound inquiries at scale and then to those inquiries automatically. What we do is simplify this by providing this omni-chat platform that lets you manage all of the different messaging channels that you might encounter customers. All of the social channels, SMS texting, website chat, all in a single unified console and makes it super easy to engage with users at scale and provide better customer experiences leading to more sales and more leads, and then just growing your business. 

Denzil Mohammed: I’ve seen in other countries, entire economies run on WhatsApp. It’s really fascinating. On Medium you have over 200,000 followers. On Twitter, you have three quarters of a million followers. That’s a gigantic mouthpiece to speak, not just to Boston or to the United States, but to the world. What’s some of the best advice you have for budding entrepreneurs and probably some of the worst advice, so to speak, to avoid? 

Larry Kim: Well, the worst advice is going to be the opposite of the best advice so I’ll just tell you what my best advice would be, and that is to really understand that initially the enormous leverage comes from the idea. What is the solution that you are trying to provide? Who is the target market? How will we find them? Like that kind of confluence of questions. You can build anything you want, and you can sell it to anyone you want to, and you can come up with any number of ways to take that product to market. But how well those concepts click together is going to provide enormous leverage on how big a business this could be, how fast this business can grow, whether or not it will even get off the ground in the first place. And so, I think what happens is that a lot of entrepreneurs, especially first-time entrepreneurs, they tend to overestimate the novelty of their own ideas. Sure enough, you’ve come up with a great idea, but four other companies are doing the same thing. And then the second thing that they do is they downplay the competitiveness of these other products and up-play the uniqueness of their concept, if that makes sense. While it’s in kind of the “stem cell phase” of a business, where you have a lot of freedom to decide what to bill, who to sell it to and how to sell it, getting to a really great place before scaling is the best advice. 

Denzil Mohammed: So finally, given your amazing social media reach, we know that people who have their own businesses want to be able to build up. Build up their brand, their personal brand, their company’s brand, engage with customers. On social media what are some of the best advice you have for entrepreneurs? 

Larry Kim: So, the advice changes over time, because it’s so dependent on how the algorithm is tuned. It seems to me that it’s pretty obvious that the algorithm is just trying to create food fights in the newsfeed. If the content that you’re producing is like family photos or like, “Hey, buy my product,” it’s not, it’s going to be cloaked. It’s not going to really generate a lot of response or not a lot of people are going to actually see that. It just means that in 2021, you need to be a little bit more controversial unfortunately. If you’re just putting up content out there, that’s very centrist, like a “water is wet” kind of thing, it’s just not going to go anywhere. So, you really need to think about the issues that divide the community and you need to straddle that line. In terms of just a stupid example, say you’re a fitness company and you’ve got people who swear by Keto diet or Atkins diet or something. But there’s a lot of strongly held convictions depending on what diet they ascribed to. Instead of just creating “What is keto?” you would create something like “10 Reasons Why Keto is a Load of Crap!” What that’s going to do is get all the other fad folks up in arms and commenting and sharing and saying, “This is a load of crap!” and hitting the mad face emoji. Which apparently is weighted five times more than the like button. That came out of the documents on Capitol Hill. So that’s really the way to go viral and get everyone … it’s kind of stirring the pot a little bit, and that’s sad. It’s kind of sad, but that’s how I would give the algorithm what it’s looking for. The hot button topics that exist in every industry. Try to provoke a response. 

Denzil Mohammed: Yeah, it’s not a fistfight necessarily that you’re getting into, but something to generate responses by way of putting information out there. The last thing I wanted to bring up was I interviewed Semyon Dukach on this podcast a while ago. He is part of a group called One Way Ventures and you talk about your parents buying a one way ticket. 

Larry Kim: I bought a one-way ticket here. 

Denzil Mohammed: You bought a one way ticket. What is the significance of that one-way ticket? 

Larry Kim: This is not a tourist trip. You know, this is … we’re not planning a one month stay or something like that. We’re going all in. There is no plan B. This has to work. And you know, that’s the mentality of an entrepreneur. It’s also the mentality of an immigrant. If you look at all the companies that are investible, there’s a very high chance that one of the founders is an immigrant because that’s the DNA of the immigrant. It’s essentially the same as an entrepreneur/founder type person. 

Denzil Mohammed: I often say that the act of migrating is itself an entrepreneurial act and you just spelled it out in tremendously personal and beautiful terms. Larry Kim, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers and for participating in this discussion and I wish you all the best with you and your family and Mobile Monkey.  

Larry Kim: Oh thanks Denzil, it’s great to be here, have a great day. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s fascinating story on how immigrants benefit and create jobs for all Americans. Have a comment? Email Denzil, that’s D-E-N-Z-I-L at Next week we speak with Alex Nowrasteh, Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute about his recent publication, “The Most Common Arguments Against Immigration and Why They’re Wrong.” I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another episode of JobMakers.

Episode 31: Gary Christenson

JobMakers podcast logo: Mayor Christenson on how immigrants enrich his cityMayor of Malden Gary Christenson has seen firsthand how immigrants have revitalized his city, starting businesses and creating jobs. Christenson has also seen how Malden came together in the aftermath of hate crimes following the Boston Marathon bombing. Tune in to learn how he wants to strengthen relationships between newcomers and longtime residents, and his perspective on sanctuary city policies.

Denzil Mohammed: I am Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: Malden, Massachusetts, the second most diverse city in the Commonwealth after Chelsea, with almost 43 percent of its residents born outside of the United States. It’s also home to The Immigrant Learning Center, the co-producer of this podcast. So a good location for a free English language program! Malden’s always been a gateway city for immigrants and refugees, from Jews fleeing for safety after World War II, to Eastern Europeans and Vietnamese seeking democracy and freedom, to immigrants from China, Morocco, Brazil and Haiti seeking the American dream today. For Mayor Gary Christenson, it is this diversity that gives Malden its strength and assures him of a strong, proud future. He looks to the revitalization of downtown, with its disproportionate number of immigrant-owned businesses, the dizzying array of cuisines on offer and the very entrepreneurial spirit that suffuses its immigrant populations. He talks with us about managing the relationships between long-term residents and new immigrants, the reaction of the city to hate crimes after the Boston Marathon bombing, how much immigrants have given back to their new home and his stance on sanctuary cities in this week’s JobMakers.  

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Denzil Mohammed: Mayor Gary Christenson, welcome to the JobMakers podcast! 

Mayor Gary Christenson: Thank you so much for having me, always an honor. 

Denzil Mohammed: So what is it like running the second most diverse city in the Commonwealth? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: It probably is the greatest aspect of serving as mayor, because I have learned things that I know that I never otherwise would, if not for living in one of the most diverse cities in the state of Massachusetts. For example, I met with a community group a couple of years ago, and when they told me the name of the country, I didn’t even know it existed. I actually had to go to a map to look it up, it was Eritrea. And again, if not for them being here and being part of this diverse city that we live in, I might have never known that. And so to me, that’s one of the greatest benefits of living here in Malden. 

Denzil Mohammed: And you’re a lifelong Malden resident. How have you seen immigration shape this city? And in what ways? As far as I can tell, Malden has always been a gateway city for different refugee and immigrant groups, right? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: Yeah. I guess how hasn’t it shaped our city? From religion, to culture, to my favorite, which is food, it’s had a profound impact on who we are and where we are going. And I can’t tell you the number of people who end up coming here now mention the diversity as one of the attractions on why they come to our city. 

Denzil Mohammed: So you think that this diversity is a strength of ours? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: We tout it every chance we get. And you know, we try not to just talk the talk. We’re now trying to take what has been happening to our city and have it permeate throughout everything we do in Malden. So for example, we now have our first Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer, just a couple of offices down from me. Her name is Bybiose Larochelle, and she now is working very hard to have the government reflect what Malden has become, which is again, one of the most diverse cities in our state. She sits on every hiring committee. She’s involved with helping to promote the vaccine to underserved populations in our city. And we want to make sure that Malden is not just known as the most diverse, but actually practices and preaches on making sure that our community is welcoming and safe for us all. 

Denzil Mohammed: So we know from our own research, and you would know as the person who runs this city, that immigrants are inherently entrepreneurial. Just the idea of packing a suitcase and leaving their family and friends, and their culture, and their food behind is itself an entrepreneurial act. How has that entrepreneurial spirit of immigrants in Malden shaped the local economy? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: Just the other day, we cut the ribbon to the new Maplewood Meat Market over in Maplewood Square. And the owners, one was from Peru and the other one was from Mexico, I believe. And they are not only the owners, but they’re serving the goods that are native to their original countries. And again, that would not be the case, if not for them wanting to set up their business here in our city. So we went down there to not only congratulate them on this risk, because that’s what it is when you’re opening a new business, but thank them as well for sharing what they have experienced and learned growing up with our community. So that’s just one example of many that we work with on a daily basis here in Malden. 

Denzil Mohammed: I remember talking to Shane Smith on this podcast, who runs Hugh O’Neill’s Irish Pub. And, you know, he mentioned when he first opened that downtown Malden wasn’t the vibrant hub that it is now, with pubs and restaurants and cafés and stores. Particularly looking at the downtown area, how have immigrants played a role in revitalizing downtown Malden over the years? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: Well, I would encourage your listeners to come see it, to experience it firsthand. But they have single-handedly brought our city back, and there were times when people weren’t sure about whether that would ever be possible again, but they have done it. Just go up one side and down the other, and you’ll see. Just this afternoon, I’m going to go over to The Gallery at 57 Pleasant Street, which consists of a number of immigrant artists who are going to be celebrating the second anniversary of that store opening. And again, that would not have happened without their willingness to get involved and help us bring back Malden Square from where it once was. 

Denzil Mohammed: And I just can’t help but think of the sheer diversity. You talk about someone from Peru, Mexico, Eritrea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Haiti, just so much rich diversity here. And we take it for granted that, just in America, we have all this great diversity of food, for instance. You know, America’s favorite fast food chain is Taco Bell. We have immigrants to thank for the fact that we can choose on a Friday night, Thai food or Scottish food or Irish food or Chinese food. 

Mayor Gary Christenson: Right, well, I can tell you the difference here. A number of our students who graduate Malden High School and go off into the big world, always come back and tell us that one of the advantages of attending school in our city is that when they get out, they’ve experienced it all, whereas students that they are meeting for the first time, it takes them several years to adjust and adapt to experiencing new cultures, new religions, new foods. But not students that come from our city. So to me, that’s one of the great things about Malden. 

Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned students, and I want to get back to that in a second, but what has Malden done over the years? How has your relationship with immigrant business owners in particular evolved? What have you done right that other cities have not done right when it comes to really fostering that entrepreneurial spirit? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: As I mentioned, our Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer now, Bybiose Larochelle, has been working with the different community groups throughout Malden to take us to that next level. Because we’ve known now for some time that we are diverse and we appreciate it and enjoy it, but now it’s time to take it to where it should go, which is to be in a place that everybody can participate in. So I would say that is where we’re going next, which is having people working in the government that reflect our community, having documents and meetings translated so people could participate and eventually run for political office. 

Denzil Mohammed: So you mentioned students a little while ago. Part of your progress in Malden has been the creation of 1,500 jobs for Malden’s teens, exposing them to the job interview process, giving them work experience, arming them with career readiness. Given that 57 percent of Malden High School students don’t count English as their first language, how do you see reaching such a diverse group of students? How have they been able to engage with these opportunities? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: We go to them, we reach out to them, we roll out the red carpet for them. We make it a point to find those students who otherwise would not get involved and take that step. We try to find people that we’ve never met and we have no connection with, because it’s opportunities like the Summer Youth Employment Program that could help determine who that next teacher is, who that next police officer is, who that next entrepreneur is. 

Denzil Mohammed: One of the most beautiful things to see in Malden is when the bell rings and the high school students come streaming out, all the elementary school students. And they’re from every different color, every different stripe, every different background, but they’re all friends, they all get along. They may wear a hijab or something else, but they all get along, and it’s almost like this lesson in immigrant integration and inclusion and belonging. Has it been challenging over the years? You talk about all this community outreach and meeting people where they’re at. Has it been a learning experience for you? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: It certainly hasn’t been a challenge. It’s been something that I have been proud and honored to be a part of. My family said growing up that the whole point of why we’re here is to learn, share and grow. That’s the whole point of it, to make it better for the next group of residents behind us, for them to be living in a place that’s greater than we found it. And so I’ve been able to do that by living here in Malden. I’ve seen, I’ve heard, I’ve learned things. It actually has helped me to rarely need a vacation, because I feel like here in Malden, I’m on vacation all the time.  

Denzil Mohammed: I’m not sure you want to say that before your next campaign. 

Mayor Gary Christenson: [laughs] 

Denzil Mohammed: It’s almost ironic and tragic that you say the lesson was to make it easier for the people who come after you, because so often the groups that have settled here dislike the groups that come after them, we’ve seen that, it’s a cycle in U.S. history. Who does America belong to? I would venture to suggest it belongs to anyone who believes in the American dream, who [inaudible] that freedom and opportunity. What do you think sets Malden apart when it comes to embracing its newest foreign-born residents and ensuring that they thrive? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: I would say it’s just a willingness to work with everyone to make our community the best it can be. We try here to take every call, every email, no matter what your stature is in life. There was a time when it was who you knew and what they knew, but we’ve tried hard over the years to let that not be the case here. So I believe we truly have an open door policy. I’ll give you an example. We had someone reach out to us from Morocco the other day. I don’t even know how she got my text number, but she got my cell number, she texted me. I couldn’t remember who she was or where I met her, but we had her in within 24 hours, sitting in the mayor’s office, trying to help address her issue, which is serious, but we think we might have some solutions for her. The point I’m trying to make is that was something we could have said, you know, schedule it a month out, find out who she is, all that stuff. But we try not to do that here. We had her here in 24 hours. 

Denzil Mohammed: So it hasn’t been an entirely rosy experience here in Malden. I think there have been some tensions with longtime residents and newer residents, and things can get very heated when it comes to national or local tragedies. We did have an incident soon after the Boston Marathon bombing where a Syrian woman was punched by a resident of Malden in front of her toddler, taking her child to daycare. But the city’s response was pretty remarkable, right? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: Well, that’s in the eye of the beholder, but our instant reaction was to swarm her, to be with her, to let her know that that is not something we’re known for or tolerate. And the thing I’ll remember most about that is the number of people who came to her defense and to reassure her that that was an anomaly. And I think as a result, we were able to survive that together. We are a community for all. I mean, just look at the latest census tract that just came out. When you look at the map of Malden, it’s pretty evenly distributed across the five square miles. So as opposed to another city who might have a segment or a population in this corner, and then the rest of the city is another population, here in Malden, you wouldn’t know where you are at any given time in any part of the city. 

Denzil Mohammed: Over the years, how has Malden sort of managed these tensions or this relationship of the longer-term residents versus the newer ones? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: I would say it’s creating an atmosphere where people are welcomed and respected, no matter what generation they’re from. So we observe and celebrate different holidays, we observe and celebrate different religious traditions, we eat different foods. And I think that’s how we’ve tried to do it here in the government. So I guess in other words, lead by example. If you notice on our social media channels, we’re always trying to promote a different culture, a different religion, a different food. And I think when people see the leaders of the city doing that, I think over time people tend to accept it. When they see their elected officials, managers, department heads, police chiefs, fire chiefs, I think that’s how we’ve been able to do it. Because again, we want to demonstrate that no matter where you are or where you’re from, you’re just as part of Malden as anybody else. 

Denzil Mohammed: One thing that you did over the last federal administration, there were a lot of movements across the country where cities were insisting that they be more welcoming and that they take a sort of stand when it came to protecting their immigrant populations. And as we know, about 20 percent of the immigrant population in Massachusetts has no legal status, they’re undocumented. Malden was one of the cities that did not proclaim that it was a sanctuary city. And the reason coming from you and your administration was that it’s already a welcoming and protective place. Can you expand a little bit on why you took that decision not to make Malden a sanctuary city? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: I mean, that was the flavor of the day to become a sanctuary city, but in actuality, what did it really mean besides the potential for protracted legal battles and the potential loss of aid? At that time, we didn’t know whether that would mean that some of the grants that we were relying on to help people who were in need of it the most would be at risk. So that was why at the time we didn’t feel the need to sign on to becoming a sanctuary city, which I think over time then changed to something else. I think for us, and I believe the other branches of government, they felt the same way, that we were long past having to label ourselves as something other than what we have always been, which is a place that everybody can live, work, worship. 

Denzil Mohammed: You and I have seen immigrants contribute to this city as business owners, as workers, through cultural events, building it up and enriching it every day. There is a huge narrative out there about immigrants as takers, refugees as takers. What is your view on that? How have you seen immigrants give back and have they given back over time more than you’ve given them, or the government has given them? 

Mayor Gary Christenson: I haven’t seen takers. I’ve seen people, like you outlined Denzil at the beginning, that just want a chance, an opportunity to live out their dreams. And so I’ve seen that as we’ve gone around to the different businesses, as I’ve talked with students in the different schools that we have here, and even in the houses of worship, when I go through there, that people are just looking for an opportunity to achieve their lifelong dream. 

Denzil Mohammed: That’s a very powerful way to end this. Mayor Christenson, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers. This was really a fascinating discussion and I hope other municipalities listen to this and be guided accordingly as to how, as you say, you can help people fulfill their dreams and you can see how much they can give back. 

Mayor Gary Christenson: That’s it. That’s what it’s all about. And thank you, Denzil, to The Immigrant Learning Center. I am certain we would not be having this conversation if not for all the work that you have done over the years. So thank you. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for today’s fascinating story on the benefits of welcoming immigrants and refugees to the U.S. If you have feedback or know someone we should talk to, email I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another episode of JobMakers.

Episode 30: John Dearie

JobMakers podcast logo: John Dearie - Halt immigration? Fall behind.As the founder and president of the Center for American Entrepreneurship, John Dearie knows how immigrant entrepreneurs create jobs, drive innovation and expand the economy. Dearie believes that the United State’s current approach to immigration is needlessly partisan and toxic. Tune in to learn how he thinks a more balanced approach will benefit both U.S.-born and foreign-born people.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: The United States was and continues to be built by entrepreneurial immigrants who had the drive and determination to pick up, leave everything they know behind and to build a new life in a new homeland. So it is no surprise that they are twice as likely to take another risk: start a business. For John Dearie, founder and president of the Center for American Entrepreneurship, a Washington DC-based research policy and advocacy organization, immigration is core to his mission to build a policy environment that promotes entrepreneurship because he knows this fact all too well. He’s also seen across the country frustration among business owners at an immigration system that works against this country’s interest. Why? Because it doesn’t seek to actively attract or retain talent from the rest of the world. John sees the decline in U.S. entrepreneurship and believes that more immigration, not less, would power the nation’s economy and innovation, which have made us the global leader. Instead, he’s seeing an unnecessarily partisan and toxic approach to immigration that he says harms us all and is inherently un-American. As you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers. John Dearie from the Center for American Entrepreneurship. How are you?

John Dearie: I’m great! Thanks so much for reaching out and inviting me to participate.

Denzil Mohammed: So tell me a little bit about the center and the kind of work that you’ve been doing. Why did you found this in the first place?

John Dearie: So, I spent the vast majority of my career in banking and financial policy. I started my career at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. I was there for a decade and then spent 17 years at an organization called the Financial Services Forum, which was a financial and economic policy group. I was the policy director there from 2001 to 2017. So I was there before, during and after the financial crisis. But as we came out of the financial crisis, even as the economy started to grow again, the Great Recession ended in the spring of 2009. So, by the spring of 2011, the recovery had been underway for two years. But the economy was growing very, very slowly and unemployment was still north of nine percent. And there was a tremendous amount of frustration that you could feel in Washington. They had really thrown the kitchen sink at the problem policy-wise, but we just were not getting the kind of traction in terms of economic growth and job creation that everybody had been hoping for. And you could sort of feel a collective shrug in Washington by policy makers. Like, we don’t know what else to do. And so I went to the CEOs and said, ‘We need to do something new and innovative to come up with some new ideas to share with policy makers; how do we accelerate economic growth and job creation?’, followed my nose through the research and eventually found my way to some research that was new at the time, but was mounting and being repeated. And there was a lot of excitement about this showing the following three things: one, that new businesses (not existing small businesses but new businesses, startups) are disproportionately responsible for the innovations that drive economic growth and job creation in the economy, so they’re incredibly important from the standpoint of economic growth. Also incredibly important from the standpoint of job creation, the two things that I was after. And, this was the really fascinating part, that new business formation, which is to say entrepreneurship in the United States, had been in decline for four decades. And I, and another colleague at the forum decided to do something quite simple and profound. We decided to hit the road, travel the country and conduct round tables with entrepreneurs all over the United States to get to the bottom of what was in entrepreneur’s way. And that’s essentially what we asked them: What’s in your way? It was by way of around table in Boston that I think I met you and I met our mutual friend Bettina Hein, who’s now on the board of CAE. And they told us. We collected extraordinary insights and data by way of that experience. We conducted round tables in 12 states around the country. Nobody in Washington knew this. I knew that because I was from Washington and I’d never heard it before. Entrepreneurship was utterly not on the radar screen in Washington as recently as 2017. And I decided that we need an organization in order to change that. We need a group on the ground doing the day-to-day blocking and tackling of engagement and education and working with policy makers on that pro-entrepreneurship agenda. And so I decided to leave the forum and become an entrepreneur myself. My colleague Katie and l like to refer to ourselves as policypreneurs. And we started the Center for American Entrepreneurship in July of 2017. Entrepreneurship is a very American idea. It’s not a Democrat or Republican idea. And the role of immigrants in American entrepreneurship, the importance of immigrants and the history of immigrants as great American entrepreneurs is a major part of what we focus on.

Denzil Mohammed: You talk about this being a very American thing. And we know this from our history. Levi’s and Budweiser, and of course [inaudible], and up until the present, Google and LinkedIn and eBay. Where exactly does immigration fit into your policy agenda? I know for instance, that during the Great Recession that you mentioned, the financial crisis, very markedly, entrepreneurship among the U.S. born dropped by almost 50 percent, and yet, it increased among the foreign-born. What does that say to you, or how does that fit into your policy agenda?

John Dearie: Well, it fits into our policy agenda in two ways, both from the standpoint of entrepreneurs themselves because immigrants are entrepreneurial by nature. And when you say that, people squint up their faces, like, ‘How do you mean?’ But when you think about it, to be an immigrant; to pick up your life, leave a culture that you’re familiar with; your country, your family, your friends; often at tremendous personal and financial risk, and go to another country, a new culture, often a new language; that is a profoundly entrepreneurial act. And so, it shouldn’t surprise us that once folks like that get here, they continue to be profoundly entrepreneurial. And in fact, the research has borne this out that immigrants are twice as likely to start a business as native-born Americans. And so, notwithstanding the fact that they represent about 14 percent of the American population, they represent about somewhere between 25 and 30 percent of the ownership of small businesses. And when you look at high-tech startups; scalable, high-tech, high-impact businesses started in Silicon valley, as many as half of those businesses are started by immigrants. So immigrants themselves are highly entrepreneurial. The other reason why it’s so important to us is entrepreneurs of all kinds need skilled talent. And one thing that we heard at the round tables that we conducted around the United States is that there is a real talent gap or skills gap. And this is particularly relevant. You’ve heard this and read about it in the context of STEM, science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, American colleges and universities simply are not producing enough folks with those backgrounds, and so there is a skilled labor gap in this country for startups and other businesses. And therefore, there is great interest and great demand in foreign-born talent. And the very first piece of research that we published after we launched was a research paper project by our research director at the time, Ian Hathaway, who’s one of the great young scholars of entrepreneurship in the country, and found that 43 percent of Fortune 500 companies and 57 percent of the top 35 companies were founded by either a first or second generation immigrant. So, the history of entrepreneurship in the United States is an astonishing history of the contribution of immigrants to the United States in the U.S. economy. And the 21st century, economy is the knowledge economy, it’s the information economy and it is going to be the competition for the 21st century is going to be won or lost based on human capital. And so, it’s one of the realities, the unfortunate aspects of this issue that the political issue of immigration and the way that too large of a portion of our population and too many of our politicians think about and talk about this issue as if immigration is some sort of a threat to the United States when in fact, as Ronald Reagan and lots of other politicians in the past have recognized, immigration is one of the great sources of strength and vigor and vitality and dynamism of the American experiment. And we need to get back to that.

Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned Ronald Reagan, who said, ‘It’s at our peril if we ignore the fact of vigor and vitality that immigrants continue.’ And it’s not a new phenomenon. Let’s make that very, very clear. Immigrants have always brought that entrepreneurial spirit with them whether as entrepreneurs or whether as workers. And their children end up doing exponentially better, very often, than their parents did. And that’s the whole point of coming to the United States. What has been the policy response from politicians as you’ve done your work in the past four years?

John Dearie: Too many people in the United States these days think about the U.S. economy as sort of a closed sandbox. And so if somebody is coming in from the outside, then within that construct or understanding of the economy, they are necessarily displacing somebody who was already here. And that’s, of course, not true. And the reason it’s not true is that the economy is not a sandbox. It’s a dynamic organism. It’s living and breathing. And when you change the inputs into the economy, specifically with regard to talent or labor, there is an economic reaction to that. And there is lots and lots. In fact, the vast preponderance of research on both the right and the left into this phenomenon of immigration make very, very clear that the contribution of immigrants to the United States is pro job creation for Americans. Immigrants do not displace Americans. They create new businesses that create new jobs, new opportunity, new wealth for Americans. For whatever reason, that is difficult for people to accept. It’s just too easy to think about the economy in that sandbox way, most folks are not economists and they’re not particularly sophisticated in terms of their understanding of the economy. And so it’s a very easy topic to demagogue politically, and unfortunately, too many politicians do that. Of course, it makes it easier when there are legitimate crises having to do with immigration, like what’s going on in recent months at the Southern border, that is a legitimate problem. And the result is that our immigration system in this country is broken, our immigration policies in this country are crazy. And when we do round tables around the United States, as we continue to do, with entrepreneurs to stay in touch with the issues and the priorities that matter to them, the issue that gets them the angriest and where they really, literally pound the table is immigration. They can’t find the people that they need, they can’t get folks that they know that are in foreign countries who are business partners with them who are starting companies with them or talent that they’re aware of that they need desperately. They can’t get these people into the country in a secure and predictable way. And for the life of them, they can’t understand it because there is no understanding. It’s completely contrary to the interest of the United States.

Denzil Mohammed: Jeez, you unpacked a lot there! I spoke to a group of journalism students from Emerson, and the idea of immigration being the southern border is paramount in the majority of Americans’ thinking. They think of immigration and that’s all they can come up with. And it’s so much more complex than that. So you mentioned that the response to your policy work has not been great. Briefly, what are some specific policy areas that you’ve been working on? Startup visas, for instance.

John Dearie: We have a number of immigration reform items that we advocate for. One is a startup visa, which I’ll come back to in a moment. The other one is graduation green cards, as far as we’re concerned for all the reasons that you’re talking about, if immigrants who come here and are educated at American colleges and universities want to stay here after graduation, why on earth would we require them to leave? That’s our current policy, is that they’re allowed in on a student visa. And then after they complete their degree, we basically deport them. In the very narrow interest of the United States, if folks want to stay here of their own volition, we’re not forcing them to stay, but if they want to stay here, why on earth would you not let them? So we’re in favor of graduation green cards and other aspects of immigration reform. But back to the startup visa, the United States is one of the few industrial democracies around the world that does not have a visa category specifically intended to attract and retain foreign-born entrepreneurs, specifically entrepreneurs who want to come to the United States to start their businesses and create jobs for Americans and contribute to the American economy. Our economic competitors around the world, and practically all of them are in Europe and Latin America, China, obviously, have overhauled their immigration policies in recent years, specifically to roll out the red carpet for foreign-born entrepreneurs, including our entrepreneurs. They want them to come there. Often very generous; free office space, access to capital at very low rates, access to mentoring and coaching. It’s all kinds of benefits; very, very attracting. Come here and start your business here. Meanwhile, the United States does not have such a visa category. And we think that’s insane and we’ve been working very, very hard on creating this special visa category. Since we launched in 2017, it’s been our top immigration priority. The good news is that working with other groups who are similarly minded and entrepreneurship focused like the National Venture Capital Association, the Angel Capital Association, Engine and other groups around the country. We worked very closely with Congressman Zoe Lofgren from California who backed about six weeks ago, introduced a bill that would create a startup visa. So, the good news is that there is a bill in Congress now to create a start-up visa. The bad news is that notwithstanding the incredibly hard work by us, NVCA, Engine, Angel Capital Association and others, we couldn’t get a single Republican in the house to co-sponsor the piece of legislation going back to what we were just talking about in terms of the unfortunate political dynamics around the topic of immigration. It is unfortunately where the GOP base is at the moment, after four years of a president who, in my opinion, talked about the issue of immigration in the wrong way, that it has become politically toxic for Republican members of Congress to support policies that would make it easier for immigrants to come to the United States, even immigrants who were coming here specifically in the context of entrepreneurs to start new businesses.

Denzil Mohammed: That is absolutely fascinating that so many other countries are, as you say, rolling out the red carpet for people who want to start businesses. And you mentioned Bettina Hein who was on your board, what a story that is. She founded an incredible business in Boston, right here, called Pixability. She explored every possible avenue, including the O-1 visa which is for exceptionally talented people, including Nobel laureates. She was able to secure that, but that visa obviously ran out. She’s now back in Europe because she was not able to remediate. There was no avenue for her to remain here, despite the fact that her children were born here, she raised a family here, she started a business employing hundreds of people over several years. That’s absolutely fascinating. Now, just get back to this idea, obviously we’re shooting ourselves in the foot, but how American is this concept of immigrant entrepreneurship? Can you explore that a little bit?

John Dearie: Sure. Well, first of all, just let me say very quickly to emphasize what you just said about we’re shooting ourselves in the foot and how our insane immigration policies, particularly over the last four years have been a great boon to Canada. There were more technology jobs created in Toronto in 2018 as the latest data than were created in Silicon valley, New York City and Washington DC combined. And the reason for that is that when the president of the United States talks about immigration and talks about immigrants in the language that their former president talked about, it sends the message to the rest of the world, ‘Don’t come.’ And so they don’t. And yes, Bettina Hein is a marvelous example of this issue. I’d love to tell this story very quick. The roundtable at which I met Bettina, but there were two other people at that roundtable. And this example was so vivid, I included it in my book that I subsequently wrote. These two guys who were roommates at MIT as undergrads, started a business. When we met them that they had graduated from MIT, they had just gotten their second round of funding. They had expanded their company from just the two of them to 15 other people. And so they were growing. And these two best friends from college, straight guys, were considering getting married in order to keep the foreign-born founder in the country because his visa had run out and he was about to be deported. I will never forget that story. That that’s the desperation of these people. These two straight guys were thinking of getting married, just to keep the foreign-born founder in the country. I mean, it’s a funny story, but it’s of course horrifying. And I just tell that because it was the most vivid example to me of just how crazy our immigration policies are. But back to the history of immigration in the United States, it’s been easier or harder over the course of our history for immigrants to come here. But, of course, there’s been a very important and very special part of our history here in the United States is the history of immigration. The great analogy of the United States being the melting pot of many people from all over the world with all their different ideas, their various talents, their languages, the food, the music, that the American experience is the melting pot of all of these experiences from all over the world. And what comes out of that melting process is the secret sauce of America. That’s what Ronald Reagan, I think, was referring to. And in his great speech, the last speech he gave before he walked out of the White House was the importance of immigration to the United States, not just the American experience and how we think about ourselves, but economically how important it was and politically, and he said, ’If we ever lose sight of that, if we ever lose sight of how important this is to who we are, it is, as you said before, at our peril! What could be more American than taking in a baseball game on a great afternoon, having a couple of Budweisers, a couple of hot dogs and singing God Bless America at the seventh inning stretch. What could be more American? It’s hard to think of something more American than that, right? Baseball is a British game that came to the United States by way of Canada, the beers and the hotdogs are German. And the song God Bless America was written by a Russian-born Jew named Irving Berlin. But the result, when you put them all together, these contributions from immigrants all over the world, you create something uniquely American. That’s America!

Denzil Mohammed: John Dearie from the Center for American Entrepreneurship, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this and best of luck as you advocate for Washington.

John Dearie: Thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity. It’s great to see you. I’m sorry it’s been so long.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and The Immigrant Learning Center, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s fascinating story of the benefits of welcoming, talented, and driven immigrants to the United States. If you have feedback or know someone who we should talk to, email Denzil, that’s D-E-N-Z-I-L at I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another episode of JobMakers.

Episode 29: Bernat Olle

JobMakers podcast logo: Bernat Olle gets a visa to improve the worldBernat Olle, an immigrant from Catalonia, Spain, founded a bioscience company to create medicines that can alter the human microbiome. He discusses how immigration enables international cooperation and innovation that benefits everyone. Listen to learn what Olle says connects him to immigrants who come here with nothing but a suitcase and a dream. We also have a full-length video interview here.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Is it any surprise that the epicenters of innovation like Kendall Square, Silicon Valley also have incredible diversity? That the cities with the highest rates of PhDs like Brookline, Massachusetts, or Palo Alto, California, are multi-ethnic and multicultural. The United States attracts the world’s best and brightest to give us Google, Tesla, the Moderna vaccine, but the thing that links the Nobel Prize winning immigrants with those picking all vegetables and washing dishes is opportunity. For Dr. Bernat Olle, co-founder and CEO of Vedanta Biosciences, seeking opportunity, brought him all the way from Catalonia, Spain to Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he continued his chemical engineering studies at MIT. Navigating the complex immigration system while seeking purpose in his career, he eventually found his calling and was lucky enough to remain in the U.S. to see it through, designing a new class of medicines to modulate the human microbiome. When foreign talent is welcomed into vibrant entrepreneurial ecosystems, like those in the U.S., when they’re able to collaborate with Americans and some people with people from around the world, they can come up with incredible ideas to benefit humanity and everyone wins. Bernat also feels a sense of kinship with immigrants far removed from labs and boardrooms. He knows that, just like those with nothing but a suitcase and a dream, the same thing brought them here, seeking opportunity, as we’ll discover in this week’s episode of JobMakers. 

[music playing]

Denzil MohammedBernat Olle, welcome to JobMakers. 

Bernat Olle: Good to see you, Denzil.

Denzil Mohammed: I remember you describing this concept of the microbiome and relating it to antibiotics in this fascinating story of your honeymoon. And you have this radical way of thinking of “no, let, let the body figure it out.” Take us back to that time and why is this kind of field of science important today?

Bernat Olle: All species of animals live colonized with microbes on the skin, on the intestinal tract and the mouth and the vaginal tract. All those are chock full of microbes and that’s the way it’s been from the very beginning before we evolved as a species, this world was a bacterial soup. So every species has evolved surrounded by bacteria. And so it’s not surprising that this bacteria play very important roles in health and specifically the bacteria that live in humans are referred to with the term human microbiome. And so that’s basically the collection of bacteria that you carry around for life with you since the moment you were born and specifically in the intestine that community is most dense. That’s where you have the most bacteria, trillions of bacteria, almost as many or more microbial cells in your body than homo sapiens’ cells. And they play very important roles. They help protect from infection, they help calibrate the set point of the immune system, which is important in our immunity and allergy potential in cancer. And there’s a number of things that we do in our modern life that perturb that community. The diet that we eat has a big effect on the microbes that we have inside, because what we eat is what they eat. So the Western diet is generally not great for microbes. That’s why there, that’s maybe the reason why there’s a number of chronic diseases that are advancing more rapidly in the west and in the developing world. The use of antibiotics is another big perturbation. From the time we’re born until our teen years the average person gets tens of courses of antibiotics and cumulatively, some of them can have an important effect in damaging the communities of microbes in the intestine. And so one of the things that we’re trying to do as a company is be to undo some of the collateral damage that antibiotics leave behind. Their use is sometimes warranted, sometimes unwarranted, back to the honeymoon story, but they’re here to stay and they’re very necessary in hospital settings, but also they create a series of issues, you know, use of antibiotics to prevent certain problems, and then other problems emerge. You become more susceptible to picking up infections from the hospital environment when your gut has no natural competitors against those pathogens. So one of the things we’re trying to do is ensure antibiotics have been used for the purpose they need to be used for and undo some of the damage by helping reconfigure or rebalance the community of bacteria that’s in the intestine that had been damaged by the antibiotic and in doing so, we hope as a starting point that we can prevent re-infections that are very problematic, for example, in hospital settings.

Denzil Mohammed: When you were first starting out as an immigrant with an accent in the Boston area, how were you received? And as a European person knowing what the entrepreneurial environment was like back then, let’s say in the late nineties when you started school, how do you think a foreigner would have been received there?

Bernat Olle: So I think my integration in the U.S. was very smooth and today I am an American citizen, my child is American and Catalan and I identify as one of us. And I really have to think hard to think of instances where I have been treated as an immigrant in a negative way. The first year I came, I remember when I was a poor graduate student, I would go to buy my fruit at Haymarket if it had been there on weekend mornings. So it’s very cheap, but it’s also terrible quality, like half of the fruit is really literally rotten. And so I remember the first times I would go there, I would try to pick the fruit rather than have the one that they hand you, because when they handed it to you, like half of it you have to throw it away, but the store owners hate it when people try to pick the fruit. And so I remember, you know, in one of my first visits somebody really got pissed off that I was trying to pick the fruit and say like, “Just go back to where you came from.” But that’s like the only time that has ever happened to me and if this was reversed, if it was like a person trying to like come to Spain, especially if you look any different than the locals, I feel like that the racism there runs in different ways. The U.S. has issues of course, with race and there’s a lot of work to do. But I think some of the other countries, like in old-school Europe that have traditionally seen less immigration and they’ve been more insular are much less prepared to welcome and assimilate people from other origins and get to a point where they’re one of them. I’m having a hard time imagining how the experiment in the opposite direction could have been smooth. And so I guess my parting point on this is that for all the issues that we have with immigration in the U.S. and with racism, the U.S. has done a much better job at assimilating and benefiting from contributions of immigrants as just about any other country in the world.

Denzil Mohammed: And thank you for acknowledging that. I think that’s a really important point to make, and that’s what makes this country special. I want to take it back a few years. You had the experience, as did I, of feeling that intense pressure where your visa is about to run out and you’re not sure what’s going to happen, what you’re going to do is a lot of uncertainty. Tell us about that time for you.

Bernat Olle: I’ve been doing my PhD at MIT and I was hoping to find a job in the U.S. to stay here after the PhD and I was on a J-1 visa and that expired, you know, a short period of time after I graduated. And I did a pretty bad, an atrocious job search and that like, I was just doing the work and I figured, yeah, like when I’m done, people are going to want to hire me, because look, I went to these great schools. And the world doesn’t really work like that, right? Like you have to, you have to really do the homework. And, basically what I found is that when I interviewed, you know, I didn’t put a lot of care or thought into what I should do. I just interviewed with firms that were reputable. Why? Because other people did it too. Like some of the well-known strategy consulting firms. It’s a terrible way to go about picking a career incidentally. And so I was rejected by just about every one of them. And it was only when I had a few weeks left on my visa and I really had to think through, “Okay, well what do I really want to do?” that finally put some thought into like, the career that I wanted and ended up going in the direction that I went. But yeah, my first job offer, which was in a venture creation firm in town that starts biotech companies, came really, really close to the bell. And I guess it could have gone a different way and that bad planning could have resulted in me going back home. And then as you know, like finding a job from abroad becomes a much more complicated process. But because I did get a job here, then I jumped on the train of the H-1B green card citizenship, which is a train that at most times in the United States has worked very well. And during the last administration, there were some serious steps back as you know, but for me, this was actually a very smooth process.

Denzil Mohammed: And it was around that time that you were able to secure a work in the U.S. that this idea of purpose was playing a role in the kinds of jobs you were looking for and the kind of trajectory you wanted to have. I vividly recall another MIT grad on this podcast and immigrant entrepreneur saying that everyone from MIT graduates and, you know, wants to do good in the world and then they go on to work at the biggest consulting firms. You were in a privileged position as an MIT graduate with a PhD. How did that idea of purpose and giving back shape where you are today and where do you plan on going with that?

Bernat Olle: My career path was very much born out of rejection. I try to follow the career path that others in business school and in graduate school followed which is the classic, you know, try to go to a very well-known firm, like a strategy consulting firm or a bank where you’re paid very well, and it looks beautiful on a resume. And it’s basically the game of compensation, titles, prestige. And I probably very much would have played that game if I hadn’t been rejected. The blessing was that by having been rejected from those firms and actually having to really think, “Okay, what do I really want to do?” And the reality is that I had never dreamed about working for clients, evaluating mergers and acquisitions or market shares of consumer products. Like, that’s not what I was passionate about. I liked science.

Denzil Mohammed: That sounds like so much fun. Come on.

Bernat Olle: Yes! I like science, I like biotechnology. In my free time, I would read papers, that’s what I would do. And so basically my first job was going to do something that I already liked to do for free, which was read about cool science, talk with inventors about cool science and try to figure out, you know, can you imagine translating that to people? Is there a role for a biotech company to try to do that? And that’s what I did for my first decade professionally, until one of these projects that I started became obsessive and offered me that I didn’t want to do anything else. And then I decided that I just focus on that full-time and that was my current company.

Denzil Mohammed: Hearing you talk about your experience. I find it fascinating, and I see that an immigrant has a certain special quality, but at the same time, you were a young person, you were just going with the flow, doing what everyone else was doing. And as you said, you didn’t have this master plan. And so you end up with, you know, a few weeks before your visa is about to end, and then suddenly you have to go beyond what your classmates were doing and think more strategically and position yourself in such a way that you would be able to stay in the U.S. and continue this investment that you had made to come all the way across the world, spend money in and get an education at MIT and continue living that dream. Today, you’re a strong advocate for immigration reform, particularly making it easier for immigrants like you, who are inherently entrepreneurial to start businesses here in the U.S. that create jobs for Americans. Tell us more about your feelings as to the immigration system being able to work for people like you and other high skilled immigrants.

Bernat Olle: Yeah. I think that the immigration system and the immigration culture in the U.S. has been a gift for both the U.S. and for immigrants during most times. And this country sort of has cycles and, you know, depending on their government, we’ve moved forward or we’ve moved backwards. But the arc has been in the direction of immigration adding a lot to the country. I think that the U.S. is really in a privileged position where, because of its culture of having been more welcoming to people that come here seeking opportunity. It has and because of being an open liberal place in the world where such immigrant entrepreneurs can find a welcoming environment to actually pursue their objectives, which is something that other superpowers don’t have, like this combination of a welcoming culture. But because of that, a lot of folks have come here and made very substantial contributions to the economy. And also benefited by developing their careers in a way that they could not have developed their careers back where they came from. So, you know, I think this is really a unique gift of this land that many other countries in the world would like to have and I think this is very important to preserve, because if in the future that sees and the talent entrepreneurial talent in in tech, in biotech and other areas decided that it’s better for them to develop their careers and pursue opportunities in China or somewhere else, the U.S. would stop being the very competitive economy and society that it is.

Denzil Mohammed: And I’d like to direct our listeners to the fact that the Nobel Prizes are being announced, and guess who’s winning them in the U.S.? Foreign-born people who came here to study and innovate has been a huge trend. Thirty percent of all Nobel Laureates have been people born in other countries. Specifically the past four years we saw a dramatic decrease in the number of visas that were issued, the number of international students who were coming here to study. And then we have this pandemic and the first two vaccines came from companies that had immigrant co-founders. Not just that, immigrants are concentrated in industries that got us through the pandemic, like cleaning, like health care. Can you talk a little bit about the impact of immigration in the U.S. during this pandemic? From what you’ve seen?

Bernat Olle: Yeah. I mean, I can talk about biotechnology because that’s the field that’s near and dear to me. And you said, you’re right, the impact on how the world got out of COVID was sensational, right? You have the founder of BioNTech, the founders of Moderna, the CEO of Pfizer and the list goes on because there’s many people that have been involved in these amazing vaccine projects that are immigrants that have been welcome, in some cases, millions of businesses in the U.S. And, the combination has been so crucial, right? Because it’s not a coincidence that so much of the innovation with vaccines has happened in the U.S. It happened here because this is a country that values its pharmaceutical and biotechnology industry as a national security asset in ways that other countries in the world don’t. Other countries in the world are content with free riding with some of the innovation that takes place in the U.S. and not spending on those industries. In the U.S. the approach has been different. And then at the same time you have these brilliant immigrants coming in, attracted by this environment and supercharging it by creating these companies that in the moment of need come through, right? And I think that, you know, Pfizer, Moderna, BioNTech, these groups coming through with a vaccine that we got in our arms in less than a year, which was a completely new technology that had not been used before with precedent. It’s just phenomenal that that was possible. But, you know, it’s not surprising to anybody in the industry that there were so many immigrants involved because, you know, you look at any company like our company, there’s a significant portion of folks that were born elsewhere. And the reality is that, you know, talent, intelligence, skills are fairly widely distributed all over the world. And, you know, the ability to attract it to Cambridge and concentrate it here so that companies can benefit from, is what’s made the biotech industry so powerful and so influential in Massachusetts.

Denzil Mohammed: You’re in the business of saving lives. You’re a job creator. You’re a scientist, you’re in the heart of Cambridge, Massachusetts. Yet, I know that when you were awarded the Barry Portnoy Immigrant Entrepreneur Award for Life Science in 2019, you found a link to your own immigrant story to those foreign-born students from Africa and Eastern Europe that your mother taught many years ago. What is that link?

Bernat Olle: Yes, so, my mother who’s now retired used to be a teacher and for a good part of her career, she taught immigrants that were coming most often from the north of Africa, but other times from Eastern Europe and another times also from Central America. Either because of war or unrest in their areas, or just because of proximity, allowing opportunity in the case of Northern African immigrants. This would often be, you know, a lot of immigration from Northern Africa. It usually came because we grow a lot of fruit in the country and there was a need for labor to help pick it up. But now those communities have established and they stayed there and they brought their families and they needed to learn the language. They needed to learn how to apply for a driver’s license or how to fill a form for social security. And if you don’t speak the language and you don’t know some of the basic things it’s hard to do that first step of integrating, right? So my mom helped many of those immigrants with this first step of doing some of the basic things, like learning the language, learning how to learn, how to do some of the basic things that you’re gonna have to do to become a functioning citizen in this place. But, you know, there’s a common element in all forms of immigration, which is this search for opportunity, right? Looking for something better than maybe you don’t imagine being able to do where you are. And so in that sense, the mindset is, it’s the same mindset across all immigrants, right? You’re willing to leave certain things behind that you liked because you want to take the risk of something that could be better.

Denzil Mohammed: And you’re leaving behind family and a culture that you grew up in and food that you loved in order to seek that opportunity. It’s not an easy thing to do. Bernat Olles, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers. I really appreciated talking to you today and I wish you all the success in the world.

Bernat Olle: Thanks, Denzil.

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and The Immigrant Learning Center, a not for profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you so much for joining us for today’s inspiring story of another enterprising immigrant entrepreneur. If you have feedback or know someone, we should talk to, email Denzil. That’s D-E-N-Z-I-L at I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another episode of JobMakers.

Episode 28: Abdul Saboor Sakhizada [part two]

JobMakers podcast logo: Saboor Sakhizada, Afghan Translator - Traitor or Patriot?Afghan translator turned American immigrant joins JobMakers for a second episode to discuss his current campaign to evacuate fellow Afghan interpreters and their families, including his own younger brother. Sakhizada shares how interpreters face challenges both in Afghanistan and in the U.S. Listen to learn what he says U.S.-born people can do to help.

Part two of two.

Denzil Mohammed: I am Denzil Mohammed, and this is Jobmakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: Last week we met Abdul Saboor Sakhizada, a former translator, instructor and a manager for the U.S. Army in Afghanistan, now living with his family in upstate New York. He spoke about life as a child of war, and what it was like in the front lines alongside U.S. troops, including Fox News contributor, Pete Hegseth. This week, Abdul reveals that he is actively trying to evacuate fellow Afghan interpreters and their families, including his own baby brother. He gives us his thoughts on the U.S. withdrawal, paints a picture of who those Afghan refugees are and entreats Americans not to buy into the false rhetoric and to get to know these new Americans in this final of a two-part special of Jobmakers.  

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Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned being seen as a traitor and betraying your country, and come to the present day you also feel a sense of betrayal, but not from those people in Afghanistan, but from America and coalition forces. Let’s talk a little bit more now about the work that you’re currently doing. So, I imagine several years ago you left Afghanistan and came to the U.S., right?  

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: Yes, that’s right. Yeah, so it’s a duality, right? Because I think you’re right. When I was there, I not only interpreted like a gazillion times of this doctrine, and preach this doctrine and live this doctrine of “shoulder to shoulder,” making promises to the Afghan security forces, to the host nation communities, to the villagers, to the teachers that “we’re going to be here, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do it right.” If you promise not to support the bad guys, we’re going to be here. I know for a fact that I’ve attended countless number of meetings where coalition forces or U.S. forces had made those promises that, “you trust us, we’re going to help you, we’re going to save you, we’re going to protect you.” And then watching in 2021 in the fashion in which United States left Afghanistan, and here I am sitting after 20 years. I mean, I served that mission for seven years, but after 20 years of U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, it almost feels like all of that was a bad dream and very novelistic that just does not have anything in reality. If I would’ve read the story of Afghanistan from 2001 until 2021 in a novel, I would have probably said, “this is a made up story.” But seeing it unfold in front of my eyes, seeing all of this, seeing all that effort, all that money, it’s hard, man. It’s hard to process it. I still can’t believe this has happened.  

Denzil Mohammed: So when you hear President Biden say something like “our involvement in Afghanistan was never about nation building.” How do you respond to that? 

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: As I said on my Pete Hegseth interview, I’m not into criticizing politicians or their politicians, but I can tell you for a fact the United States was there to nation build. It’s sad. What bothers me is that we have found a way to celebrate our defeat, to somehow paint a picture, this tragic picture, somehow still to celebrate “we did it good, it’s ok.” I guess we’re either numb, or we don’t understand what this all means. I mean, I remember reading a book and that book kind of talked about what winning looks like. And one of the things that this book talks about is that in military warfare, there’s two, and this part of it is confusing even for the citizens of United States and international community and audience concerned citizens, it’s confusing. Did we actually win in Afghanistan, or did we lose? So there’s two different aspects to this, right? Because if you actually look at the number of people that got killed, who lost the most? U.S. lost about 2,000-3,000 soldiers, somewhere around there roughly. And then there were in comparison, the insurgents. The Taliban may have lost hundreds of thousands of their fighters. So from that point on, the U.S. could say … and I’m not even counting the civilians that lost their lives, the teachers, hospital workers, doctors, engineers, and all of it. So that’s even a side story, another wound that we don’t want to open. But the point is that from a personnel standpoint, United States and international community may have not lost as many lives as the Taliban or the insurgencies did at that time. So from that point of view, one can make an argument saying, “Oh, U.S. actually won because when you enter a battle of warfare, they lost more fighters than we did, so we won.” But the second most important thing about warfare in Afghanistan, and particularly in the case of Afghanistan, is whose flag is up at the end of the battle? Which army has their flag up? And clearly we know that United States and Afghanistan flag is not up right now, and the insurgency’s flag is up. So this debate as to whether or not we lost, we won in Afghanistan, what this all looks like, our mission was not to nation build … well, you’re hearing it from me. I’ve attended hundreds of meetings where we talked about building infrastructure, building a state, state-building. USAID implemented hundreds of projects fighting corruption, building infrastructure there, addressing the recruitment process of how to hire women and minorities and all of this. There are hundreds of projects on governance in Afghanistan, building a governance system. If those are all not nation building, I don’t know what is. So the point is, I don’t buy that story because I know for a fact that we were there to nation build.  We did go there to nation build.  We poured billions of dollars into that nation to nation build. 

Denzil Mohammed: I want you to bring it into the present day. We know what’s happening in Afghanistan, we’ve all seen the images and the footage from the airport, people climbing onto planes, even as they’re moving, some falling to their deaths. What is your role right now? What are you doing? 

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: When we saw that Kabul was collapsing, I immediately got on the phone. I started calling all my military buddies, including Pete Hegseth, and anyone that I could possibly find. I said, “I need help. I need to save my brother. I need to save my family.”  And so I ended up talking to some friends, and those friends found their friends, and eventually we found the ways to save my brother and get him through those gates at airport despite the chaos, despite the disorder that was there. So we certainly made the impossible possible, but it was all done through the efforts of a lot of folks that may hear this voice and my heartfelt gratitude goes to all of them for doing this. And so eventually when we found out a way to save lives, we basically took that methodology that we had and we started saving other interpreters, other families. We had a system and others made referrals to us and we started doing the same thing with them, and because we had the right point of contact from that point on, up until when the blast went off, until the suicide bomber blew himself up at the Abbey Gate in Kabul at the Karzai airport. And so that was when our mission of evacuation kind of went through this break, this halt. Right now we’re putting up a team that are going to do some of those evacuations because we know there are a lot of interpreters, we know there’s a lot of folks that helped U.S. mission in Afghanistan. I have visited Fort Pickett, Fort Lee to get close to some of the Afghan refugees that are here in the state-side and to offer some support. We’re actively putting classes together for them to go deliver some of the services, whether that’s culture, whether it’s U.S. expectations and laws, and even giving them the broader picture of what to expect when they get out of those military bases and they start living in American society, just like all of us. So we’re doing things in different levels to help as much as we can through the group that we have through the nonprofit efforts that we have put together.  

Denzil Mohammed: So finding creative ways of getting evacuees out of Afghanistan and into some kind of safety. So we are expecting refugees and people on special immigrant visas to be resettled in the U.S., that has already started happening, coming from Afghanistan. Help our audience understand. Who are these people? What are they like? What are their backgrounds? And I do remember reading there was some 50,000 Afghan interpreters over the course of the war. 

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: These are people like me, now you’ve gotten to know a little bit about my story. These are engineers, these are doctors, these are people with unique skills that we don’t get to see as often in United States, they are bilinguals in most cases, some of them know more than two or three languages. They’re also folks that have been deprived of education in their lives, like there are women, for example, girls. So you get a whole mixture of different categories of population that come in to the United States. And I come from a background of serving immigrants, serving refugees in the United States because professionally that’s what I did for about six years of my life here. So for those that are not as equipped to be ready to join or to contribute immediately to the American economy, then what you do is you connect them to the right resources to make sure that they’re getting equipped or can establish them on the path to self-sufficiency. But eventually they will all be just like all of us, and their children will be just like our children here or the children of American-born citizens. 

Denzil Mohammed: I’m sorry, I thought people moved to the U.S. in desperate circumstances just to live off welfare. Are you saying that’s not how it is? 

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: Quite honestly, I think they’re quite the contrary. There’s a benefit welfare program that offers benefit, and these people are eligible by law to benefit from those programs. But no, like I said, these guys are not free-riders. They are engineers and they have skills to offer. With my program, I specifically initiated a work program how to transfer their certificates. So we have nurses for example, and they were nurses in their home country but they did not meet New York nursing standards, or whatever that was. So they had to go take some tests, to pass their test and exams, to be certified again as a registered nurse. But for that, it takes time. And until that takes place, they have to learn a little bit of language, they have to be ready to understand the medical terminologies or medical language, and they have to also work as maybe janitors or perhaps a cleaner somewhere to make a living. And some of those folks that have a large family or so may also benefit from welfare from other things, but that will be temporarily, because once they get back the job that they had studied for, the goals that they have for their life, it will just be like the rest of Americans. But I have to say, and I think this question alludes to this larger, larger picture, because we don’t get to talk about it as much, is the melting pot, the American melting pot. The crucible of everyone coming in and immediately overnight changing and losing their identities, losing their values and the things that they have, and automatically accepting American values. Keep in mind that they were. I mean, look at me!  I grew up in a war zone. I grew up under a very highly conservative society. And for us to come in and be exposed to a whole set of new values and information, it takes time for folks to go through this “melting process.” And I think we’re not realistic enough. And for those that question it, had they lived on the shoes of those families that are going through this transition every single day? I would almost guarantee you that they would have quite a different experience of what that would be like. 

Denzil Mohammed: That’s a really important point to make. That adjustment does take time, and so many of them didn’t have the luxury of MTV and these other things, movies and Hollywood, to acclimatize them beforehand, growing up in such an insular, very religious society. But, the one thing that these people want is freedom. They want opportunities.

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: When I first came into the United States, the sky was the limit. Opportunities left and right. And for someone like me and full of energy, trying to do as much as I can to scale up the social economic ladder, or perhaps being engaged, like the same energy with the same thing I did in Afghanistan, you know the sky was the limit. I wanted to seek every opportunity I possibly could for my family or for professionally or academically. And I managed to go through three different degrees in four and a half years. I did my associate’s, I did my bachelor’s, I did my master’s all in four and a half years of my five years of time in the United States. Part of that was that I saw opportunities out there and I wanted to utilize them, and because I know for a fact that a lot of these families that come into the United States as community members, if we support them and help them thrive, the community in general thrives. The community in general uplifts themselves, and they have better community members to contribute back to the community. But I can also guarantee you on the contrary, that if some of these families struggle and they cannot adjust their life, because we know how hard adjustment is, and if they struggle, I could almost guarantee you that then the entire community will struggle.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s important for America to remember not to re-traumatize these families who have been through already so much. This is a moment where we can really show how compassionate we can be, how welcoming we can be, how our value system is, which is that we welcome the stranger who wants to work hard, who’s fleeing something terrible. And we need to also remind people that people who were forced to flee generally don’t want to flee. They would rather stay in their home country and build it up, right? 

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: And for their children, and the school that their children go to. It just blows my mind. So I think it comes back to that one word in my mind: engage. Engage and you will learn because that’s where it all starts. But if you keep isolating yourselves and keep seeing your neighbors as this “other,” not as “we,” then that is the source of all evils in my mind. That creates a gap between you and the neighbor. But when you think about “we,” then you’re putting yourself in the same circle. You’re putting yourself in the same umbrella of, “we’re a part of this community, and we’ve got to help each other out.” 

Denzil Mohammed: I dare anyone listening to this podcast. Before you make an opinion public about Afghan refugees in your community, go say “hi” to one. Find out who they are for yourselves, and you will be incredibly enlightened, and you may be able to then share a different opinion on refugees being resettled in the U.S. Abdul Saboor Sakhizada, thank you so much for joining us and giving us all of your experiences and your perspectives, and really on the work that you’re doing right now to get people out of Afghanistan to safety, wherever that may end up being, whether it’s the U.S. or other places.  We really, really wish you the best of luck. 

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: Well, I appreciate you having me on the program. Thank you so much. And thanks for what you do, because it’s important for people to know the facts, the realities, and also the inside stories of some of these families. 

Denzil Mohammed: Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about the contributions of immigrants and refugees produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center of Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this final of this two-part special of Jobmakers. We return to regular Jobmakers next week with Spanish-born life science entrepreneur, Bernat Olle, founder of Vedanta Biosciences, who is revolutionizing the world of the microbiome. I am Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday afternoon for another Jobmakers.

Episode 27: Abdul Saboor Sakhizada [part one]

JobMakers podcast logo: Saboor Sahkizada: Afghan translator, child of warBefore coming to the U.S., Abdul Saboor Sakhizada worked for the U.S. Army in Afghanistan as an instructor, manager and translator, winning an award for his service in the process. Now he’s struggling to ensure that people  like him have the opportunity to reach safety in the United States and contribute to their new home. Tune in to hear his remarkable story and his insights into how the current wave of Afghan refugees will fare in the United States.

Part one of two.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed. And this is a special episode of JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Afghan refugees who’ve helped U.S. and coalition forces have begun their resettlement here. The U.S. has long given refuge to those forced to flee. That’s how the United States of America began, and in so doing it has enriched itself through the fighting spirit of those determined to survive, but for how long will America’s embrace last? The public’s support for resettling Afghans here hold. And furthermore, what does the American public really know about these refugees from Afghanistan? For Abdul Saboor Sakhizada, who worked as an instructor, manager and translator for the U.S. army in Kabul, it is not just crucial but necessary that the U.S. take in those who have helped our brave soldiers. In this two-part special of JobMakers we get to know Afghanistan and its people, examine the fallout of the government collapse and live how Abdul is actively working in the most difficult and chaotic of circumstances to get as many evacuated as possible. This week, we heard about the fascinating but tragic life in Afghanistan from Abdul, a self-described child of war. And we discover what those 50,000 interpreters had to endure every day, fueled by patriotism and targeted as traitors in this special episode of JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Abdul Saboor Sakhizada. Thank you for joining us on JobMakers. It’s such an honor to have you on. How are you?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: I’m doing okay. Thanks for having me on the program.

Denzil Mohammed: So obviously we’re going to talk about Afghanistan, but first of all, paint us a picture. What was life like in Afghanistan growing up?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: So, oftentimes I refer to myself as the child of war. I was born in the 1990s in Afghanistan. And for anyone who knows that history of that part of the world, it’s nothing but destruction, violence and injustice taking place. And obviously right around 1990s you had the civil war and you had the dictatorship of Taliban. So I grew up right around that time. I was born around that time. I went to school right around that time and then up until 2001. So, yes, I guess I could officially say that I was a child who didn’t get to play with toys. We got to play with sitting at home and counting the bullets that were crossing over our heads, and rockets, and the airplanes, the jets that fly around. So it was, looking back, I guess we’re blessed in a way, or I am blessed in a way that to survive that sort of destruction that took place in that part of the region, but consider myself from that regards to having survived it lucky. But I wish that life for no one because it’s a state of hopelessness and it’s quite, quite challenging.

Denzil Mohammed: You reflect on your childhood and you’re amazed that you survived. Wow. That’s absolutely fascinating and really tragic. You know, you talk about counting bullets and jets. What exactly was happening around you?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: I mean the country was divided or the city, and at least the capital where I lived or where my parents lived, the city was divided into different sections and the civil war and these different groups, mostly divided by their own ethnicity, of different ethnics fighting for power created a whole chaos of the search for power. They struggle to see who was going to be the most dominant force in the society. And then what you had in the middle of all these fighters or these groups, you had people like us who were living in and getting hit from every corner. Sometimes you had to make this risky journey from one side of the city to another side by going through one group of people, pretending to be someone else while transitioning to another group of people, then to pretending to be someone else. So it was quite challenging. Obviously a famine, the economic instability, the difficulties of you making sure that you have enough food on the table or at home for the families was very, very difficult. Like every morning we would go buy a pound of sugar or something because that’s all we could afford. We didn’t have a savings stock of food that we could rely on at home. And so it was crazy. There were countless numbers of days that we slept without food because we didn’t have it. We had to be strategic about how we want to eat in different times of the day because we knew we couldn’t make it. We didn’t have a three-time meal. It was like I said, I started by saying I wished that for nobody. Quite challenging. And as a child being very active you always want food, you always want bread. And then you go to your parents for giving you bread. And there isn’t any, so it’s hard. It’s a hard life to live under. But that’s beyond, that’s past now. Again, quite lucky to have survived that and I know millions of people did not make it.

Denzil Mohammed: You talk about such insecurity and instability. What was education for you? Traditionally we think of education as the way out of poverty, the way out of difficult circumstances. Where did education lead you?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: Yeah I mean it’s an interesting question because reflecting back, because you could not forecast what the future would look like. A lot of folks would go. Nowadays we talk about, “Oh, I want to go to school because I want to be doctor. I want to be an engineer. I want to be this particular astronaut” or whatever. But when I went to school those ideas of what do I want to become, or what path do I want to take from early on in my education, it was not even a question mark in our heads. Honestly, a lot of days we went to school it was just to get away from home and have something to do other than just sitting at home and not being able to do anything. And the schools we went into. I mean, I remember our classrooms didn’t have windows. Our classroom didn’t have a roof. And sometimes the school was so boring because we didn’t have enough teachers and stuff. And because there was no roof, there was no windows, we were praying, there were days we would pray for the rain to come because when it rained the school was dismissed, everyone would go home. And so it was so funny. We didn’t have no chairs, no tables. And we would all sit on a floor. I remember to this day when I was in, like, fifth or sixth grade during the Taliban regime we used to wear turbans. We were forced to wear turbans and it was very difficult for me and my peers in my classroom. My classmates to manage the turban, because if it fell off you had to organize it back in your head and you have to learn the basics of how to put a turban back together. But there were other subjects. All of the subjects that we studied were all different fields of an intrafaith. An intrafaith, not interfaith, but intrafaith of diving deep into different books and different avenues of understanding the religious. It was almost like a religious school, except that it was considered to be a public school. The teachers were all sort of mullahs, those religious scholars or religious teachers who would come in and teach subjects. Our math teacher was a mullah.

Denzil Mohammed: At some point you started fighting in that country, didn’t you? Did you join the military?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: So, fast forward when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan in 2001, I was still in school. I was still studying. My oldest brother was old enough to support U.S. operation or U.S. mission in Afghanistan. And so he joined with the special forces and he became an interpreter. And he offered support. And from an economic standpoint we needed that extra help at home. My parents needed it. And so he was another person to bring bread on the table. And so it made sense. And there was not much else to do. So my brother initially started this path of us joining and fighting the resistance or the insurgencies, and the better hopes. Because early on the U.S. mission was, after the interim government was formed, the ideas of constitutional democracy, girls going back into school and all of it. So this hope, this new new idea just emerged into our heads. And that was hope. You could be anything, you could do anything. And you could become an engineer. Or these new concepts began emerging. We had new ideas, TVs began coming back to life. And I did not know what TVs were like at that time or before during the Taliban. And music and all of these things. So fast-forward when I graduated high school, following my two oldest brothers, I followed the same path in my own capacity. I began serving and helping U.S. soldiers and coalition soldiers, coalition international community, to kind of fight back and establish just a new shining city that’s about to rise. You can see it above the horizon. Or these ideas that are coming up into existence. So you could kind of imagine what that feeling would be like, that you’re not like a soldier grabbing weapon to fight because the last thing you want as a child, as a young teenager, the last thing you want to be is that you want to be close to guns and weapons because you grew up right around it. So you had enough of that. And so my goal was to support the U.S. mission and yet simultaneously helping my own communities thrive. Establish a government. Build a system where everyone was my own sisters and everyone could go to school. And so that kind of opened up the path for my sense of patriotism of helping build that nation. So that’s where I not necessarily putting a soldier’s quote unquote soldier uniform on, but perhaps in my own capacity, in my own way build the communities, help the communities.

Denzil Mohammed: That’s absolutely astonishing that suddenly you had hope. And all these things that we take for granted; music, televisions, just cultures, knowing about all these different things. That you lived in such an integral world for your whole childhood.

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: Yeah I mean it’s crazy because sometimes I go to high schools and I present and I talk to senior high school students that are about to go to college. And I talk about these ideas that don’t take these things for granted; you got windows, you’ve got air conditioning in your school! Oh my God! These are unfamiliar concepts to a lot of people in different parts of the region. And I think that societies like the United States right now had to do what it had to do to get to where they are now. But the fact that you could appreciate what you have is a whole different dimension of realities that you have to deal with as you’re growing up. Because you know that you could be in a different part of the world at a struggle in life without all these things that you don’t have. Electricity, for example, computers. Imagine writing hundreds and hundreds of pages of notes without having a computer or the cell phone.

Denzil Mohammed: I saw an interview with you on Fox News and you spoke about your time in Afghanistan helping the forces. Including with Pete Hegseth, is it? Tell us what it was like working as an interpreter?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: So with Pete Hegseth and everyone we ran what’s referred to as the Counterinsurgency Training Center Afghanistan, and that was right around in 2007, 2008. U.S. mission began changing from hunting the insurgency to winning or nation-building to counterinsurgency. This idea of coin; winning the hearts and minds of the people. And I was one of the first. Pete Hegseth came later on, but when the inception of that academy took place, I was almost the only guy from the beginning of this program. And soldiers would always go back and forth and deploy, and they would complete their tours or complete their deployment, and return back to their homes. And Pete Hegseth came in and that was right around the time when I began slowly changing my role from doing interpretation to an administrative role, to more of teaching. Becoming an advisor. Teaching soldiers on culture, on language, on history, on politics. And then helping folks like Pete Hegseth understand what is it like to work with Afghans. And a lot of other soldiers who were getting deployed in Afghanistan. And so every soldier up until 2013 when the transition period began for that center that we were working on, because Afghan security forces began taking that doctrine of counterinsurgency and embedded it into their system. We were teaching them and every soldier that entered Afghanistan, they would have to go through our training center for five days before they would get deployed to their actual work zone or work area. And so that’s where Pete and I were instructors or advisors teaching them how to do this. Both in the capitol but also traveling outside the capitol, making trips to do it in the region.

Denzil Mohammed: Pete mentioned once this was not your job, but you were with him and other officers and you were pulling bodies out of vehicles, right?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: Yeah. We had to. As a young man, I had to experience some terrible, terrible sceneries. There was one thing of being in your home and seeing the bullets and rockets go above your head and you’re counting them. And then there’s another feeling of you’re actually in the mix of the war zone. You’re actually seeing bullets being shot at you. So it’s a different feeling early on in Afghanistan. When I started joining the military, because I was right there with the soldiers. So there were a couple of instances where the service members of the United States, but also coalition were attacked. And the second one that I was part of. The first one Pete wasn’t even in Afghanistan back then. But the second one Pete Hegseth and myself, we jumped in on the becoming the QRF team, the Quick Reaction Team that responded to that VB ID that took place that took a bunch of our students basically. They targeted a bunch of our students who were supposed to come and start a class. And so we responded to that. And then that was when Pete was talking about how we were pulling bodies of soldiers and civilians from vehicles that were destroyed or basically were burning. Quite a horrible moment to live through. But that was something we had to do what we had to do because that was what we signed up for. Not necessarily to pull dead bodies every single day, but that was part of the struggle. That was part of the battle. That was part of the mission is that you’re going to end up finding yourself in those moments and you have to be prepared to respond. And so that was what Pete was referring to in my interview. And he was exactly right.

Denzil Mohammed: This was your environment, right? I mean, this is where you live. This is what was happening. That’s really, really fascinating. So part of what I’m doing here with you right now, at least in this portion of the podcast is painting that picture and having the American public understand what this place was like, what you all were going through, what your childhood was like to really understand the very, very stark differences. I mean, it’s a world away. A lot of what you’re describing to me. What was the experience like for you personally working with the U.S. military? What did that feel like? And what was the public reaction to your working with the military?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: I mean, traditionally from a family standpoint, right? So my oldest brother began working, and then my second oldest and then followed up to me. It was all the sense of patriotism. You’re doing something for your country. You’re helping build the nation. You’re doing all of this work. And even reflecting on what we did in Afghanistan, and here we are on the state’s side and knowing where the mission of United States is right now, it will basically end and they would withdraw from Afghanistan. For me, or for us as a family, it always was a reflection of. We had seen enough destruction. We had seen enough violence. We had seen enough horrific scenery of people getting killed. Millions of people fleeing the country, taking refuge to the neighboring countries. Financially, it was not feasible for my family to do. I’m always stumped. I always think about this because had my father had the financial means to emigrate or take refuge to other country, we would have been probably somewhere else in the 1990s. But because we didn’t do it, we couldn’t, we didn’t have the financial means to out migrate or to leave the country we had to basically live and accept the realities that we lived. And so I have to say that even when I started working with the army from this idea of patriotism, the sense of patriotism, later on the conflict or this battle, this irregular war, became so complicated that, you know, the insurgents were very smart. They knew that a lot of these soldiers like Pete Hegseth would rely on Abduls, on the Sabbors, and their interpreters and their cultural advisers to help them understand the ins and outs of the community so they could better serve those communities. So they could better develop systems and policies that could help benefit the people. And the insurgents what they had to do was they started hunting folks like me, and folks like my brother and others of our peers. And because they knew what a critical role we played, because essentially we were the eyes and ears of the U.S. military of Afghanistan. We knew the language, we knew the body language, we knew the culture, we knew the dynamics that played into the different ethnicities and all of that. So they began hunting us. And a lot of thousands of interpreters have lost their lives and advisors have lost their lives because they were isolated and they were targeted. And it’s essentially that whole sense of patriotism of you being so proud of serving, building your nation, essentially flipped on its head. And the other side of the coin was quite evil, quite dark. And you have to go in hiding your identity. You have to disappear from society. You have to hide from your peers, from your friends. And so it is an overnight shift that sometimes psychologically very hard for you to process because here you are, you can’t go to soccer games anymore. Here you are. You can’t participate in wedding ceremonies, you can’t be away from home when the sun sets and all of those things. You can’t tell people what you’re doing. So essentially paints a very negative, dark picture in your mind. And you begin questioning every single thing you do from that point on. Not only for yourself, but also for your family, for your loved ones. Because no one wants to identify my parents, that his son is working because they could easily target him. I lost my uncle in host province. He initiated bringing a chapter of a TV station that was aired in Kabul at the capitol. He helped install their antennas into host, and one of the provinces and their districts that where he lived, and literally within three months he was dead. They dropped his body in a bag in front of their house. And so that was a lesson for hundreds of other villagers in that area, or people of that family. That this is what you get for doing this. If you go against us this is what you get.

Denzil Mohammed: You’re doing this work, and you’re talking about it within this frame of patriotism of doing things for your country. And at the same time, you’re seen as a traitor, someone betraying your country, and I guess your values and your history. And that’s absolutely fascinating. And how old were you when this is happening?

Abdul Saboor Sakhizada: So I started working with the U.S. armed forces when I was 17 years old, right after high school. It’s funny. Sometimes I talk about it and it hurts me because I played for the nationals of my country. I played soccer for the nationals of my country. And there was one point when I started working that I had to bring money to the family, that I had to decide between my soccer career versus working for the military. And I chose the latter as you could imagine. And I still think what we did was great, and I’m not trying to paint this negative picture, but seeing what my other brothers did and follow that path.

Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned being seen as a traitor, betraying your country. And come to the present day you also feel a sense of betrayal, but not from those people in Afghanistan, but from America and coalition forces. Thank you for joining us for the first of this two-part special of JobMakers. Next week, we come to terms with the pullout of security forces and the chaos and dread that’s resulted. Learn about the ad hoc and creative ways Abdul is getting family and friends out and find out how we can all be welcomers to those who helped us, those in need. We return to regular episodes of Jobmakers on October 14th. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for the last of this two-part special of JobMakers.

Episode 26: Jim Stergios

JobMakers podcast logo: Jim Stergios on why immigrants are crucial to our successAs a child of immigrant entrepreneurs, Jim Stergios has special insight into the contributions of foreign-born people in the United States. As the executive director of the Pioneer Institute think tank, he also understands the current heated political conversation over immigration. Tune in to discover how he believes today’s immigrants are different and similar to the immigrants of his parents’ generation.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed. And this is JobMakers

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Denzil Mohammed: At the start of this year. Pioneer Institute collaborated with The Immigrant Learning Center on this podcast due to our deep roots among immigrants in Massachusetts and beyond, particularly those who are overrepresented in one very important field. Job creation. Immigrants have always been inherently entrepreneurial, from Levi’s jeans and Coors beer to Goya foods and Tesla, but that penchant for creating jobs flies in the face of the myth that immigrants take jobs. For Jim Stergios, executive director of Pioneer Institute, it is a story that needs to be told. It is after all at the core of American enterprise, innovation and prosperity. It’s what gives the U.S. its edge over other countries and it’s the truth, for Jim and is also personal. His father and uncles got together and started their own business as young immigrants to the U.S. from Greece. There’s a common story about immigrant families, old and new, and Jim believes the entrepreneurial spirit of yesteryear is the same among today’s immigrants, as you learn in this week’s JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: Jim Stergios, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. How are you? 

Jim Stergios: I’m doing really well. And thanks for having me, I really appreciate the opportunity and you’re doing a great job. 

Denzil Mohammed: Pioneer Institute is the one who approached The Immigrant Learning Center about doing a podcast on immigrant entrepreneurship and immigrant contributions called JobMakers. Where did that idea come from? 

Jim Stergios: There are all sorts of divisions in how people talk about immigration and entrepreneurship and frankly they’ve lost the sense that entrepreneurship and the creation of jobs and companies are an integral part of why we seek, why we welcome immigrants into this country. If you look at the left, I think there’s a lot of thinking that, I guess, all sides are a little bit cartoonish on this, the left believes that America is sort of an oppressor society. If you go to the traditional right, I think they’d probably say maybe even libertarian-side free capital and free labor, let it all flow, and then you have the more revanchist right that we saw during the Trump years really take hold, which is, oh my gosh, all of immigration is a messiness at the southern border and that’s all it is. And you know, I, sometimes I have to tell you, sometimes I look at the Facebook page where we post up the fantastic work that you’re doing, talking about people creating jobs and people coming here with dreams and wanting to do stuff. And I shake my head and say, do people actually think that immigrants, that the whole immigration picture is about protecting the southern border? And it’s a sort of madness. So, watching that kind of a conversation that people don’t even have, they just talking past each other. I wanted to really emphasize real people doing real things, facing real problems, trying to build a real life here in America, which is why they come you know, things like, “I want to start a business, I have a dream, I want to start this business and maybe I can’t get there immediately.” Let me go do something else on there, solve that problem or find some capital. I’m gonna find some talent. I’m going to figure out how to train them. I’m going to do whatever I can define the connections to find a way to go to market and improve people’s lives. And then, yeah, I’ll make a buck at the same time. That’s kind of what this country has been about. And I think that whole thing has been lost. And maybe if I get to say one more thing, which I think is absolutely crucial, this conversation, and that is I think Americans lose sight of the fact that the entrepreneurial spirit really does come from immigrants. Immigrants come here for a reason, for the most part. You know, of course there are people at the edges, I get all that. But they come here for a reason. They want to do something, and they recognize that this society allows them to do stuff that maybe their home country would not. And that’s the beautiful mix between an immigrant wants to build something in the United States, which tends to like to see people build stuff. 

Denzil Mohammed: It’s a story I hear over and over again, no matter if you’re in big pharma, pharmaceuticals, life sciences or you run a doggy daycare or a corner shop somewhere, it is the same story. And I’ve heard from again from highly, very highly educated people talking about, well, back home in India and Pakistan, I didn’t belong to the right tribe or my skin color is not something that people would want to give me money to invest in my business idea. Dominican women who came from a very patriarchal society who would not have been able to start businesses in the Dominican Republic are able to do that here. That entrepreneurial spirit, business owner, or not that entrepreneurial spirit drove them to take a risk and to come here to create a better life. Now, the fact that we present facts, we present research, we present stories and yet even some of the simplest things like the data is questioned. People question the data, the question, the numbers, the question, the motivations of people who come here. what do you think is at the heart of this kind of response, this really visceral response to immigration today? 

Jim Stergios: I think it’s dislocation in the economy, number one, and there were certainly sort of, we’ve always had ethnic. I shouldn’t say “we,” the entire world has always faced ethnic and racial biases. We are not unique in that. We have a unique story around racial bias and around ethnic biases, we certainly do, but anyone who’s traveled. And I spent the first 10 years of my career abroad in Europe and in the far east, and look, these are things I saw everywhere. I think the second thing I’d say, and this is more now than when I was a kid. I feel like these days, there’s just so much divisiveness around what you have and protecting what you have. It’s probably because people feel more at risk. I hope it’s not more than that. I’d like to think it’s not. And I think that’s why we’re doing this podcast and trying to participate in this way. And just trying to inform people about real stories and real people, is when you understand real people and those things start falling away.

Denzil Mohammed: And immigration has always been to our benefit, which is a big part of the puzzle for me, that has given opportunity to people who have in turn created jobs and built up economies and expanded local economies. But you have a personal connection to immigrant entrepreneurship. And tell me a little bit about your parents.

Jim Stergios: I have the traditional immigration story where mom and dad, neither, both of whom completed high school, one with a GED, came over from Syria and Greece. Neither had anything to their name and they meet, they fall in love. My dad had been at war and World War II. A Marine in the far eastern theater came back, had some trouble, I think, in terms of trying to figure out what to do with his life after war. War is a tough thing. Moved from sales position to sales position, and finally settled on working with his brother, very family-oriented business, and his other brother and founded a window and door and other construction materials, manufacturing facility. You know, it’s sort of hard work putting together money, trying to move things ahead. You at some point achieve some success and it’s kind of a funny thing. I guess the difference is these days, if I think about the culture, I mean, it was a pretty religious culture at home where you did a lot of Bible study and you’d try to read things and we were pretty different from, I think, immigrants today in two ways. One is, we were more closed now. We would hang around with Syrians and Greeks a lot and our interactions outside of that were at the public school where we’d get to meet other kids, so I think that’s a little bit different these days. I think there’s more of a yearning to connect with other immigrants, especially given the tenor of the conversation these days. I think it’s probably a little bit different, especially in urban areas. And I guess the second thing is my dad used to always say, “Don’t go to college. Work, do what I do, become just like me.” And I think these days, immigrants probably have a very different view for the most part, if you’re starting a business, you understand what education means and because we’re in a different kind of economy, a manufacturing economy, which is low investment, maybe upfront, building, building, building to the point where you can make bigger investments. That’s education plays a huge role now, which is, I think one of the big puzzles we have on the policy side in Massachusetts, to think through how we make sure we can address that issue. 

Denzil Mohammed: What I’m getting at is this idea that somehow immigrants from the past were inherently different than immigrants of today? 

Jim Stergios: Oh no, no, no, not at all. That’s not the case. I think they’ve just grown up in a different world where, you know, Daniel Bell, the sociologist from Harvard wrote a book called The Post-industrial Society back in 1968, I think it was. And he was simply saying, look, education is going to separate people going forward. And all I’m pointing to is that, that has had an impact on how immigrants come to this country and, and what they do here. But frankly, even back in the 1960s, we had a whole recruitment effort of highly educated Indians, for example, to come here and work in the medical field. So nothing’s really changed that much. I’m just saying that the educational emphasis is so huge now in terms of what you can do going forward that it’s probably something that has changed some of the pattern of what I grew up with, but the values are the same, the reasons why people come here are the same. I’m often really struck by when I talk to immigrants about what they think about the United States and then what I hear Americans say about their own society. I would guess the polling is somewhere around like, you know, the positivity around being an Americans, like huge among immigrants and among the sour-puss Americans these days, it’s so “we’re a terrible place.” 

Denzil Mohammed: But bringing it into Massachusetts, where much of Pioneer Institute’s focus is what have you seen as the impact of immigration in Massachusetts? Particularly in the past few decades? 

Jim Stergios: Yeah, I think there’s one constant, and that is immigrants coming into this country change not the underlying values, though people always feel like those are at risk. It’s rather how we interpret those values and the cultural impact of people across time are huge. And if we go back to the 19th century, anybody who’s been brought up in Boston understands the imprint on how we’ve interpreted freedom and how we’ve interpreted governing and how we’ve interpreted business creation the hospitality industry because of the Irish immigrants that were here, the role of Catholicism in our society vis-a-vis what was there before. I mean, huge, huge change. And every wave of immigrants brings that sort of larger cultural impact. And I think it’s all positive and enriching. I remember as a kid traveling to Fitchburg and to Lawrence and to Worcester connecting with people who were on my Syrian side, Syrian Orthodox church. And, you know, it was just terribly enriching to those places as well. So, it’s the impact of immigrants isn’t just economic, it’s literature. It impacts what we write about, the stories that we tell, the ones that we find most fetching, the ones that we find most interesting, it’s all impacted by that. But then of course there is this amazing impact on opportunity. And I think anybody who was in Kendall Square 30 years ago and stands there again now says, “Oh my God,” and I’m not saying those are all citadels built to the ingenuity of immigrants, but there are a lot of immigrants in those buildings. They built a lot of them. And that same thing is true across society. I mean, if you look at some of our institutions, our strongest institutions, the one that give real oomf, real impetus to the development of companies here, and let’s just talk for a second about our hospital sector, top dogs, ones that actually help us identify ways in which we can invest in the life sciences, a lot of immigrants there, and the people who are doing, even back in the seventies, you’re talking about a couple of decades going back to the seventies and eighties, the development of tech in this state, all highly influenced, highly driven by immigrants. So, I think anybody who talks to you, especially with MIT, Harvard, Boston University, Emerson College, Boston College, all these different universities, they’re highly dependent on, especially in the STEM areas, highly dependent on the talent that they can recruit and actively seek to recruit it. Come on, we know what immigrants have meant for the state.  

Denzil Mohammed: You talk about Kendall Square, and I think you mentioned Moderna earlier, Pfizer, the other vaccine manufacturer, also founded by an immigrant, you know, maybe a century ago, but that tradition of immigrant entrepreneurship continues today and we’re all benefiting from it. But let’s not forget Field’s Corner. Let’s not forget some of these other places. The Immigrant Learning Center is based in Malden Pleasant Street, Main Street, all populated by many, many immigrants, immigrant-run businesses of every kind from the Irish pub to the Vietnamese nail salon. All of these places have been revitalized through people moving in when the rents were cheap and over, may take a generation or two, but it gets there to a place of safety and prosperity.

Jim Stergios: So that’s kind of what I was trying to get at earlier and didn’t say as well as you just said it. And what I mean is, look I’m not sour on Americans. I love this country and I love my fellow citizens, but, when you go to, everywhere from, Brookline to Malden, to Fields Corner, to Lawrence, who are starting those neighborhood businesses, yes, there are people who have been here for a century or more, but the real energy comes from folks who are immigrants and what would we do without these quintessential neighborhood businesses as well? So, that’s what I mean by replenishing the entrepreneurial spirit. It’s the desire, you’ve taken a risk to come here, the idea of taking risk, again, to put, you know, some money down and take a risk on your talent and your work ethic. You know, this is true when, I spent some time in academia and I would always have a laugh with one of my professors who used to say, “Jim, you eat every book you have, you are very desirous, you have big desires.” And I said, “I think it’s because I’m a kid of immigrants,” and I think it is true. Even there. She would always say, my best students are immigrants because they don’t take anything for granted. So, it’s all to be achieved. Look, I’m not trying to be overly sentimental here, but I do believe there’s something to replenishing the spirit of the United States that comes through immigrants. I think that often gets lost in the messiness of our conversation.

Denzil Mohammed: You mentioned something that I find very fascinating, which is this idea of the child of immigrants. We actually did a study through Paul Watanabe at UMass Boston on the adult children of immigrant entrepreneurs. You spoke earlier about your father wanting you to be an entrepreneur, but that this generation, you know, even the immigrants who start the laundromats or the nail salons or the grocery, really do focus on education. And what we found in that study is that the majority of the children of immigrant entrepreneurs actually go into occupations of service. So, they go into the medical field, they become social workers, they become people who serve their communities by and large, which I found absolutely fascinating. And I see that, you know, in a sense you’re doing much the same thing by trying to improve policy in Massachusetts, but are we failing our immigrants? And particularly as we talk about the children of immigrants in Massachusetts, you know, when polled people often find that the most detrimental impact of immigration is on our schools, can you talk a little bit about how Pioneer feels about this aspect of immigration? 

Jim Stergios: Education is the thing that makes Pioneer’s heart go pitter patter, a good 50-60 percent of everything we do is related to K-12 education. It’s not even higher education it’s K-12 because we think those are the formative years. And, you know, I guess the thing I’d say is that look, Massachusetts is fortunate to have had political leadership in the past that supported big reforms and I think had some real impact on driving up the performance of low-income immigrant English language learner communities. And I feel like we have really slowed in that process to the point where, just to give one example, and I’m not trying to call out Boston per se, because it’s an issue that I think applies to a number of our districts, but the Boston public schools were actually put under a consent order by the Justice Department, the Department of Education in 2012, because the 17,000 of the 53,000, 54,000 students, about 30 percent of their students who were English language learners weren’t getting an adequate education. They weren’t having people that were trained. It was just a complete and utter mess. If you read the report, the department of justice, the department of education put out, it’s shameful. Massachusetts is a high-performing state overall, has among immigrants, even lower scores, and scores are not everything, but scores are something for their students than Florida. And I guess I’d say that’s something we need to rectify and pay a lot of attention to it for many reasons, there are reasons of equity and humanity and all the rest, but there’s also the one which goes to the heart of why people come here. That is a talent pool of people who are highly motivated because their parents are highly motivated and to lose the opportunity to have them do great stuff. That’s true of any kid, but of this group of folks who actually have probably inculcated into them from an early age, you must make something of yourself and do something to become a good American. That’s really shameful. And I think a real lost opportunity for revitalizing our cities across neighborhoods you’re talking about, but frankly, doing the great stuff in Kendall Square and elsewhere as well. 

Denzil Mohammed: What is Pioneer’s position on immigration, what areas or issues under that large immigration umbrella are most important to you and why?

Jim Stergios: So, I think our position is, maybe I could state three philosophical things, just a little bit broad, but, you know, we respect people. We understand that all people have value and have something to contribute. And I think sometimes it’s good to just remember, we’re talking about individuals that comes from the libertarian spirit, all people matter, no one matters more than anyone else. We also believe in the rule of law. And I think the other thing we believe in is, we like debate. We like open debates, civil debate, and all three of these come crashing together on the immigration issue, because it means Pioneer will not have a clear position on some things because the rule of law bumps up against respect for all individuals, because of course, some people come from quote, unquote outside and some people are inside. Right? The thing that matters to us most is number one, having a real honest, but civil conversation around this based upon real lives with in mind, from Pioneer’s perspective, with two things in mind. Number one, immigrants make up a large portion of our public schools. We have to do right by them. And number two is they play an enormous role in the economic prosperity of this state and we want to make sure that we welcome them, that we benefit from them as much as we can and that they can benefit from being here as American citizens, if they so choose, or on work visas if they don’t choose to be American citizens. And we want that to be done fairly and without bias. So, those are the two things that matter most to us and the places that we look most. And I think you’ll see, for example, Pioneer Institute is setting up a legal center. Some of the work that we’ll do will be probably related to making sure that immigrants are treated fairly here before the law, immigrant entrepreneurs will be treated fairly before the law. And you’ll see a lot of our work focus on making sure that people who may not have as much of a voice here are getting treated fairly by our school system and have ample opportunity to get educated. That’s through a new litigation center, we’re going to be setting up, early January and you’ll see Pioneer’s own work focus on those issues as well, over the coming years. So those are the two places where we land. I know there’s much more to the debate. 

Denzil Mohammed: So, let’s recap, immigrants have an inherently entrepreneurial spirit. They are job creators because of that spirit. They believe strongly in the American dream. They believe strongly in freedom and opportunity. I think we’ve seen over the course of many decades that immigrants do integrate, that immigrants do learn English. Immigrant Learning Center is a free English language program. We have never had to advertise our services. We’ve always had a waiting list. That immigrants are not just numbers. They are people with stories and dreams that immigration in the U.S. is not just the southern border. It’s much more complex than that. And that we especially here in Massachusetts, but of course across the country have benefited from that entrepreneurial spirit, that desirous spirit of getting to the American Dream, whether it’s Biogen and Moderna and Pfizer or the neighborhood business that rectifies a food desert. And that this is intrinsically tied to the American story, right? 

Jim Stergios: There is no American story without it. 

Denzil Mohammed: Jim Stergios, executive director of Pioneer Institute. Thank you for joining us on Jobmakers. 

Jim Stergios: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. 

Denzil Mohammed: Thank you for making this podcast possible. JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and the Immigrant Learning Center of Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s fascinating discussion on how immigrants together with the U.S. will make a better. If you know someone we should talk to email Denzil, that’s D-E-N-Z-I-L at Leave us a review on your favorite streaming service. Join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 25: Jaisang Sun

JobMakers podcast logo: Jaisang Sun gives the facts about immigrantsAs an academic with a focus in refugee studies, Jaisang Sun has a unique perspective on today’s immigration conversation. Sun discusses the costs and significant benefits of our current refugee program, highlighting how refugees contribute financially and strengthen our communities. Listen to hear his perspective on the new influx of Afghan refugees that the United States is currently welcoming

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: I’m sure you have an opinion on refugees, but how much do you actually know about them? What do you really know about the process of identifying, screening and resettling people from foreign lands who cannot go back home? For Jaisang Sun, research associate at The Immigrant Learning Center’s Public Education Institute, the co-host of this podcast, correcting misinformation and disinformation about refugees is paramount, especially today with the potential for an influx of refugees who assisted our special forces in Afghanistan and the consequent public discourse around it. Jaisang, or Jai, is completing his doctoral degree at Syracuse University with research on the deportation of refugees from the U.S. His interests include transnational migration, diasporic nationalism, multiculturalism and refugee studies. Jai clears the air for us on refugees and the resettlement program, including costs and benefits to us. And more importantly, he profiles just who refugees are, people just like you and me, except displaced and persecuted, with nowhere to go. Something many of us will never experience, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.

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Denzil MohammedJaisang Sun, research associate at The Immigrant Learning Center’s Public Education Institute, welcome to JobMakers! 

Jaisang Sun: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Denzil Mohammed: So refugees, of course, have been in the news quite a lot recently. And your research at Syracuse has focused on refugees, and the work you do as a research associate at The Immigrant Learning Center’s Public Education Institute looks at immigration broadly, including data and stories of refugees. Can you define who a refugee is and how that’s distinct from an immigrant?

Jaisang Sun: Sure. A refugee can be defined as a person outside his or her country of nationality who is unable or unwilling to return to the country of origin or nationality because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or a political opinion. 

Denzil Mohammed: So it’s almost someone who’s pushed out of their home country, right? 

Jaisang Sun: Absolutely. Forcefully displaced. 

Denzil MohammedAnd that’s really the distinction for an immigrant, which is someone who generally chooses to move for some reason. 

Jaisang Sun: Yes. A lot of people attribute that agency to regular migrants, whereas refugees would lack such agency to move about freely. 

Denzil Mohammed: So what kind of person is a refugee? What kind of qualities do you think they have, or characteristics? What do they bring with them? 

Jaisang Sun: Refugees are just like you and me. They are hard-working people, they are people with dreams and passion and goalspeople who pursue happiness in their lives. 

Denzil Mohammed: But the kind of person who is forced to move to another place. And let’s be clear, that move is not an easy move, right? It’s not as though they just get on a plane and land in Buffalo and they start a new life. Oftentimes they are forced to move to a neighboring country. They are in refugee camps, sometimes for years on end. The stories of refugees from Vietnam who had to flee in the dead of night, be caught by pirates, be caught by security, thrown in jail. What are some of the journeys like? 

Jaisang Sun: I am not a refugee myself, so these are anecdotal evidences and stories that I have heard from others. But yes, most of refugees’ journeys to safe resettlement have been very dangerous, treacherous, and they were met with force many times. And the fact that they were displaced from home, I think it presents enough challenge for anyone, but to make that journey to safety is … I can’t even begin to fathom how difficult it may be. 

Denzil Mohammed: And you bring up two important things. One is that they’re just like you and me. They just want to lead regular lives, they want happiness, they have dreams, they have passions. But they’ve also been through something that is life-changing, something that is dangerous, something that’s treacherous, liferisking. And so I think of some of the refugees that I know personally, you know, the person who cuts my hair, she tried to flee Vietnam 10 times as a teenager before she was actually successful. Each time she tried, she was thrown in jail. I think of Hong Tran who was interviewed for this podcast several months ago, who in the process of fleeing Vietnam, they were attacked by pirates and his mother and baby sister were killed. And then they have to go on in these new countries to learn a new language, learn a new culture, learn new laws, try to get an education. What happens to refugees once they’re resettled in the U.S.? 

Jaisang Sun: That’s an excellent question. Many refugees go through the resettlement processes, which have been streamlined as a result of the 1980 Refugee Act. Although different agencies do different things, they are resettled and they are asked to meet an economic self-sufficiency by getting a job very, very quickly upon their arrival to the United States. 

Denzil Mohammed: Specifically within two weeks. 

Jaisang Sun: Not necessarily two weeks. The data goes to show that most refugees, once resettled, are able to secure some form of employment within two weeks of arrival. 

Denzil Mohammed: And that form of employment is generally not where their careers left off in their home countries, right? I mean cleaning, Dunkin Donuts …

Jaisang Sun: Right, you see doctors and professors and these people with professional degrees having to start their new American life as dishwashers and janitors and things that they have never really done before. 

Denzil Mohammed: And so what happens when a family gets settled in the U.S.? Who determines where they go? Who are the ones financially helping them out? 

Jaisang SunThe initial journey that refugees make are partially funded by the State Department through this international organization called the International Organization of Migration. Each individual is generally given a loan of about $1,100 so that they can make the journey over here. And after six months of arrival, they are expected to pay back in full amounts, although interest free, of the money that they borrowed from the State Department. 

Denzil Mohammed: Beyond that, the help that they receive in settling in, in finding job, in learning a language, those are generally done by nonprofits, right? 

Jaisang Sun: Most of those works are done by nonprofits, and for decades, nonprofits have been the backbone of strengthening refugee resettlement programs within the United States, and also selling our model of doing refugee resettlement overseas to those countries that are just starting to pick up what it means to resettle refugees. 

Denzil Mohammed: So Jai, give us an overview of refugee policy in the U.S. It’s a fairly recent phenomenon, no? Or did it start off much earlier than we think? 

Jaisang Sun: It did start off much earlier than we think. When most people think about refugee policies and refugee resettlement, we often jump to the 1980 Refugee Act, which is not entirely false, but some would actually argue that the history of refugee policies started a long time ago. Some argue it started as early as the Mexican Revolution, when many, many people were displaced as a result of the revolution who were then admitted to the United States as refugees or given permanent residency. But certainly the modern refugee policies have roots we can date back to World War II, wherein Jews and other minorities under Nazi persecution challenged the world with a massive global refugee crisis. The first instance of the United States’ policies on refugees was perhaps the presidential directive dated December 22, 1945, when President Truman authorized displaced persons and refugees to receive expedited admissions to the United States within the framework of the existing immigration laws at the time, which was largely based on the quota system of 1917. Now, this directive allowed some 40,000 displaced persons to enter the United States under the existing quota regulations. And it was considered a success on the very first instance of the specific refugee act. And then in 1948, the Displaced Persons Act was passed, and it was the very first specific refugee act after World War II to address nearly 7,000,000 displaced persons in Europe in the aftermath of World War II and allowed refugees to enter the United States within the quota system. Needless to say, because of the immigration laws at the time, particularly the quota system and its roots in racism and segregation, it only accepted refugees of certain national and ethnic backgrounds. Notwithstanding its biased selection of refugees though, this act did admit more than 350,000 displaced persons into the United States. In 1952, the Immigration Nationality Act reorganized the existing immigration and nationality laws, and although it maintained a quota system, it lacked the refugeespecific provisions. So it allowed structurally for other ad hoc programs, including the Azorean Refugee Act of 1958the 1959-62 Cuban Refugee Programthe 65 Cuban airlift, the 62 Hong Kong Parole Program. All of these ad hoc programs were installed between 1952 and 1965. In 1965, amendments were made to the Immigration and Nationality Act that fast-tracked the adjustment of status for a lot of refugees that came in already in the United States. And then in 1980, the Refugee Act of 1980 was passed, overhauling a lot of these ad hoc refugee programs and streamlining a lot of the processes and administrative procedures to go about bringing in refugees on a more orderly fashion. 

Denzil Mohammed: So describe for us the waves of refugees we’ve seen since 1980.

Jaisang Sun: Since 1980, we’ve definitely seen a wide variety of refugees who entered the United States that have strengthened our diversity and our commitment to humanitarianism in this country. But many of our refugee patterns follow a lot of the crises that happened around the world at the time. So in the eighties, we saw a lot more Cubans coming into specific corners of our country and a lot of Indochinese refugees entering through the Pacific coast of the United States. And since then, we have seen an increasing number of refugees from the continent of Africa and the Middle Eastern region. 

Denzil Mohammed: And Eastern Europe as well, right? 

Jaisang Sun: Absolutely. 

Denzil Mohammed: So what you’re saying basically is that we’ve for a very long time accepted refugees, no matter where they are in the world. At one point, there was a quota system that would have limited those admissions to an extent. But what is the responsibility of countries to accept refugees? What is this rooted in? 

Jaisang Sun: I would argue that it’s rooted in our commitment to humanitarian principles. The United States government signed a United Nations High Commission of Refugees Convention, and the Protocol to it, as early as the 1960s. So some may argue that we are simply following our promise to adhere to these international guidelines, which are deeply rooted in the humanitarian principles to never see crises like we did in the aftermath of World War I and World War II. 

Denzil Mohammed: Let’s bring it into Massachusetts. And Massachusetts is perhaps not widely known as a popular place to settle refugees, but we certainly have, and will continue to. So give us some stats about refugees in Massachusetts. 

Jaisang Sun: Absolutely. Since 2010, to Massachusetts a total of 14,573 refugees resettled. The top five countries from which refugees came are Iraq with 3,849 people, Bhutan with 2,725 people, Somalia with 1,924, Democratic Republic of Congo with 1,576 people and Burma with 1,128 people. And there are different destinations within the state of Massachusetts, but we were able to identify Worcester, Lowell, Lynn and Springfield to be the top destinations for these refugees. 

Denzil Mohammed: What are some of the trends we see with refugees to the U.S.? You talked a little bit earlier about economic self-sufficiency. What are some of the trends, financial and otherwise, that you see with refugees? 

Jaisang Sun: Sure. There are different interesting facts and statistics and trends on refugees. For example, on average, refugees have shown to naturalize faster than any other lawful permanent residentsSixty-six percent of refugees who entered the U.S. during the period of 2000 to 2010 became naturalized citizens. There are other statistics that look at employment of refugees. Studies have shown that refugee men specifically are in the workforce in higher rates than their American counterparts. In terms of refugee economic self-sufficiency, we have to remember that because refugees’ resettlement goal is to meet that economic self-sufficiency, they’re encouraged very much to find jobs very fast. Despite the fact that they are forced or they are encouraged to find jobs very, very fast, there are a lot of studies that show that it takes, on average, about seven years for an average refugee to reach that economic self-sufficiency. And again, the path to getting that economic self-sufficiency is not always very flowery for most refugees. 

Denzil Mohammed: Describe that to us, because obviously most Americans don’t have a sense of what refugees have gone through in their home countries while being displaced, after leaving their home countries. Can you just sort of guide us through in a very descriptive way, what it is like for refugee families once they settle here? What do they go through? 

Jaisang Sun: Absolutely. For example, there are statistics that go to show that about 46 percent of refugees, upon their arrival, are on food stamps. Needless to say, when they are receiving public benefits, such as food stamps, they don’t have much. They don’t have family members here, they don’t have friends or other networks that are giving them cash, they don’t have food, they don’t have toys for the children. So, in most instances, they don’t have the educational or the language ability to seek opportunities that they may otherwise be completely eligible for. So every aspect of life is incredibly difficult for them. And not to mention, because they are refugees who have experienced varying degrees of persecution, many refugees suffer from either physical or mental disabilities, and many of them have shown to suffer from PTSD specifically. So refugee lives upon resettlement doesn’t revolve around success stories only. 

Denzil Mohammed: And as distinct from other migrants, I know that for instance, this podcast is called JobMakers, and we look a lot at immigrant entrepreneurs, who have a higher than average rate of business generation, because I know for immigrants overall it’s about 11 percent, and for refugees it’s about 13 percent. So Jai, can you sort of speak generally as to the impact of refugee resettlement in the receiving country? 

Jaisang Sun: Sure. Refugee resettlement, albeit it is different than immigration, but the impact to which refugees have on our country and our communities are very, very similar. They enrich our diversity. They populate our cities. They bring in jobs. They become entrepreneurs. They become our partners, our family members and they become Americans. So the impact refugees have on our country are not only very similar to immigrants, but the fact that they are able to overcome a lot of the hardships and the difficulties in making the journeys over here help us to

Denzil Mohammed: I mean, I feel as though they almost enrich the resiliency of America. 

Jaisang Sun: Absolutely, they do. Absolutely. They bring living examples of how to overcome these difficulties, how to be successful. And they provide a blueprint for our next generation to be this resilient generation of Americans who will lead our country and continue to help in the spirit of humanitarianism that we have been doing for the last decades. 

Denzil Mohammed: Is there anything else you wanted to add about refugees? There’s so much misinformation around refugees. If there are a couple of things that you wish would really be cleared up in the American public discourse on refugees, what do you think they would be? 

Jaisang Sun: Like you said, Denzil, there are smany information regarding refugees, immigrants, refugee resettlement, immigrant integration. There’s such a wealth of information online and outside. One thing that I hope that the general population will look closer into is, they’re feeding these unfounded claims on refugees and immigrants. For example, just like how we talked about in the beginning of the podcast, they are people just like you and me. They bring hopes and dreams to this country, and statistics have shown that they reach success. They don’t reach success illegally. They don’t reach success through crimes. They reach success because they have grit. They have a spirit of entrepreneurship with them just like you and me. So I hope thatwhen looking for information online, people are able to see the true intent, and the clear information that they can find that’s based on facts and empirical results. 

Denzil Mohammed: And I imagine that you will be coming up with some more of these facts and empirical results in your role as Research Associate at The Immigrant Learning Center’s Public Education Institute, whose mission is to educate Americans on the contributions of immigrants and refugees, and really to inform the discourse with facts, with nuance, with stories. And we need to remind ourselves that this is a nation of immigrants, and at the same time, we’re the greatest economic and cultural powerhouse in the world. And were enriched by all the different cultures and viewpoints and perspectives that have informed where we are today. Jaisang Sun, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers. 

Jaisang Sun: Thank you. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center of Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s fascinating discussion on how immigrants and refugees, together with the U.S.-born, make a better U.S. If you know someone we should talk to, email Leave us a review on your favorite streaming service, too. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 24: Jeff Goldman

JobMakers podcast logo: Jeff Goldman on how immigrants keep America competitiveAs co-founder of the Massachusetts Global Entrepreneur in Residence program, Jeff Goldman has seen firsthand how immigrant entrepreneurs make the economy stronger and more dynamic. Goldman discusses how the United States can better capitalize on the innovation and talents of immigrants, particularly entrepreneurial immigrant college students. Tune in to also find out how he sees undocumented workers impacting U.S.-born people’s day-to-day lives.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: Immigrants innovate. Kendall Square in Cambridge or Silicon Valley wouldn’t be what they are today without the ingenuity of immigrants, but the dense and convoluted immigration system doesn’t always allow for that retention of skill and talent, which would of course be to America’s benefit. For Jeff Goldman, immigration attorney and chair of Governor Charlie Baker’s Advisory Council on Immigrants and Refugees, ingenuity to tackle that convoluted system was what was needed to ensure highly skilled and innovative immigrants could remain in the U.S., start companies and create jobs for Americans. Jeff co-founded the Massachusetts Global Entrepreneur in Residence Program, which modeled new ways for foreignborn university students to continue learning, teaching, innovating and creating jobs in the U.S. Jeff sees how much skilled immigrants add to economic vibrancy, and he’s also keenly aware of the tremendously positive impact on our daily lives of undocumented immigrant workers and what Massachusetts has done to enable them to thrive, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.  

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Denzil Mohammed: Jeff Goldman, welcome to JobMakers! 

Jeff Goldman: Thank you, Denzil.  

Denzil Mohammed: So you’re an immigration attorney, which means you help foreign-born people come to the U.S. legally. Is immigration a good thing for the country and the Commonwealth, and how do you know this? 

Jeff Goldman: Immigration is such a positive thing for the United States and for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and I know it because I see it every single day. I also know it because there are so many authentic reports that are put out by respected non-government organizations, bipartisan commissions, all pointing to the benefits of immigration to the United States. I see it every day, Denzil, because in my practice, we’re mostly working with business immigration, helping U.S. employers grow and expand in this economy. And they do it with U.S. workers, and when they can’t find enough U.S. workers, they look to hire foreign nationals. And my law firm is very busy making sure that they hire foreign nationals through the legal system and that everything is done correctly, and every time we get an H-1B visa, L-1, O-1 visa, green card for these companies, we see them grow again and hire again, mostly U.S. workers, but filling in with foreign nationals as needed. 

Denzil Mohammed: So I was gonna ask you also about your clients and who they are. You said business immigration and companies. What kinds of companies have you worked with? And also tell us, over the years that you’ve been practicing, has immigration law become easier or harder? 

Jeff Goldman: The companies I’m working with are mostly in the life science/pharmaceutical sectors, a lot of technology, manufacturing and definitely finance. All of the companies, and I’m talking about hundreds of companies that I represent, are in growth mode. It’s been a long time since I received a request on what to do if they’re laying off a foreign national or any worker. They’re growing and they’re hiring and immigration plays such an integral part. Has immigration become easier or more difficult over the years? I think it’s clear it’s become more difficult, for many reasons. First of all, the demand to employ foreign nationals has never been greater in the U.S. economy than it is today. Most of your listeners may or may not know that the number one way foreign national professionals come to work inside the United States is through the H-1B visa. It’s one of the only ways tech companies can get software engineers that they desperately need; life science companies can get biologists, chemists, scientists; and financial organizations hire the right MBAs and other leading financial experts to work inside the United States. But the H-1B is limited to 85,000 every fiscal year. The demand is in the hundreds and hundreds of thousands, and thus the lottery is set up and only 85,000 are selected every fiscal year. This is almost crisis situation, where companies need these foreign nationals to continue to grow and expand, but the supply is not there. Critical point: these companies must pay fair wage. These companies cannot undermine the U.S. labor force to bring in foreign national professionals to work. And for the most part, this works just fine. How do I know that? No company would pay immigration lawyers the fees we charge and the filing fees that the government charges to bring in a foreign national who is paid less. It’s not worth it. They’re paying so much in costs and fees that they wouldn’t do this. Nobody would do this. 

Denzil Mohammed: You hint at this scarcity of highskilled workers in the U.S., especially today where we see technology driving so much of the economy. So therefore you must have a very negative view on the past administrations really dramatic crackdown on legal immigration to the U.S., right? 

Jeff Goldman: Correct. The Trump administration is one of the first times I’ve known in my 30 years of practicing immigration law where a president tapped all aspects of legal immigration and claimed all of it is bad for the United States, contrary to mountains of evidence that state otherwise. And of course, we now know President Trump did this for his political agenda, to make sure that voters who were leaning toward President Trump, who are not generally in favor of immigrants, had a lot of fuel in the fire, to get them all excited to continue to jump on the Trump bandwagon. And it’s really unfortunate because had we just spent all of that time and energy trying to fix the problems with legal immigration rather than end it, we’d all be much better off today. 

Denzil Mohammed: You say that this was one of the first times that you saw these kinds of actions, and it’s something I keep saying on this podcast: if immigration was bad for the U.S., why did we have it in the first place? It just so happens that we are the greatest economy in the world, and we’ve always accepted immigrants, these people who are self-selected to have this drive and ambition and determination to do better. Do you see, however, a real way to rebuild since Trump, and is the Biden administration moving in the direction that you’d like? 

Jeff GoldmanThe Biden administration is cautiously moving in the right direction. President Biden has set forth a wide range of immigration reforms he would like to see during his administration, but he readily admits he’ll never get to all of them. And I think at the top of the list is DACA, finding a solution to the hundreds of thousands of immigrants who arrived without authorization as children due to no fault of their own, and they’ve been here their whole lives, and they add and add and add to our economy and our country, I am convinced. And both sides of the aisle is ready to move ahead with DACA and make it a permanent solution. 

Denzil Mohammed: I do distinctly remember then-candidate Trump saying that DACA recipients had nothing to worry about. And then once he was elected, Jeff Sessions comes out and says, hang on [laughs]. And this political football that they are playing in terms of these lives and futures of these young people is beyond tragic. And as you mentioned, most of the public is in favor of some sort of path to legalization for these young people who have been through our education system, who deserve in-state tuition, who deserve to have careers where they are able to pay more in taxes and contribute more. But let’s bring the discussion locally. So you’ve been instrumental in several initiatives that both offer foreign talent the chance to remain in the U.S. and thrive, but also that nurture a narrative that emphasizes what, as you said, the mountains of evidence have already told us: that immigrants are assets. One of those initiatives is called the Global Entrepreneur in Residence Program. Tell us about that and the kind of growth that it experienced over the past few years. 

Jeff Goldman: The Global Entrepreneur in Residence Program was created six years ago by a group of immigration lawyers, venture capitalists, corporate attorneys, and the government of Massachusetts, who came together to brainstorm solutions on how Massachusetts could continue to grow, even though the H-1B visas were so limited, and so many Massachusetts companies were left shorthanded in terms of software engineers and scientists, in order to move ahead. And I was on that committee, and we came up with a solution, which came to be known as the Massachusetts Global Entrepreneur in Residence Program, or the GEIR. Here’s the solution: the H-1B regulations limit the number of H-1B visas every year. However, there is an exception to the rule. There are four organizations that are called cap-exempt organizations. They can always hire an H-1B any time. Those four organizations are universities, nonprofit research organizations, government research organizations and nonprofit organizations that have an affiliation agreement with a university that benefits the university. Congress decided that these four organizations are so integral to the growth of the U.S. economy that they should always be able to hire an H-1B when needed. But that doesn’t exactly help all of the private companies that desperately need these H-1B workers. Well, I was familiar with one other exception in the immigration code: if a foreign national is present in the United States in H-1B status, then any entity, whether it be a nonprofit or a for-profit, whether it’s a government organization or a private organization, can immediately file its own concurrent H-1B petition and hire that same foreign national for full-time work at that entity. We presented this proposal to the University of Massachusetts, and the University of Massachusetts at Boston jumped at the chance to participate in this innovative workaround. So what’s happened in the past six years since this program has come into being? Well, hundreds of talented foreign nationals who were running out of work authorization and had nowhere to go have been legally employed by the University of Massachusetts at Boston, University of Massachusetts at Lowell, Babson College, Worcester Polytech and other universities who are participating in the Massachusetts Global Entrepreneur in Residence Program. Private companies have been able to retain them because they have capexempt H-1B status, and those private companies in the six years since our program started have hired thousands of U.S. workers, since they were able to capture these valuable H-1B workers. They have landed hundreds of millions in venture capital funding, all of that money staying here in Massachusetts. It’s been a win-winwin situation 

Denzil Mohammed[People say] I thought that if an immigrant took a job, that’s one less job for Americans.” And youre saying no, that an immigrant gets a job in the U.S. at a high-growth company, and that actually helps make the company grow and offer more jobs to more U.S.-born people. 

Jeff Goldman: If there’s ever a time in our nation’s history we need to celebrate this and expand it and grow it, it’s now. And we need to continue to be the attraction, the beacon of where these innovators and entrepreneurs want to be. We need to be inviting and welcoming and consistent. That’s what is so desperately needed in our immigration system. 

Denzil Mohammed: Consistency. And I guess for a short time, we didn’t have that consistency, and we saw the number of students applying to universities here drop during the last administration. There was even an article in Forbes by Stuart Anderson, who predicted that legal immigration to the U.S. would have dropped by as much as 49% because of the Trump administration’s policies. But talk a little bit about your clients and your networks. What are the kinds of products and services and technologies you’ve seen your clients come up with, and how do you see them benefiting the ecosystem here in Boston? 

Jeff Goldman: Well, some of the amazing clients I’ve had the privilege of working with are teams out of MIT, who are miles ahead in the effort to take ocean water and desalinate it and make it potable drinking water. This is something that people have talked about for hundreds and thousands of years. Wouldn’t that be amazing? And I think we’re closer than ever, and it’s foreign nationals out of MIT that are among the leaders working on this right now. I’m convinced that we wouldn’t have vaccines for COVID had it not been for the use of technology, and immigrants are by far and large behind the advancement of combining technology and science. I have clients in the engineering space finding solutions for 3D printing that actually is printing PPE gear, the protective gear that nurses and doctors need. Can you imagine that they’re now making this all out of 3D printing? All foreign nationals who came up with the algorithms and with the strategies and with the startup companies that are producing these materials. 

Denzil MohammedYou talk about vaccines. Charles Pfizer, co-founder of Pfizer, and Noubar Afeyan and Derrick Rossi, co-founders of Moderna. So, yes, we probably would not have had those vaccines if it weren’t for immigrants. So really incredible things that happen when we allow foreign talent to come here and innovate with Americans. You’re also the chair of the governor’s Advisory Council on Immigrants and Refugees. Now, I remember that in 2009, the previous council had developed a very meticulous Massachusetts New Americans Agenda. It contained detailed proposals and recommendations to bring out the best in the states immigrants and refugees, and covered everything from housing and language access to workforce development and civil rights. Where are we with this Massachusetts New Americans Agenda? Have any of the recommendations come to pass? 

Jeff Goldman: Yes. Without question, several of the recommendations have come to pass, and I can talk about a few of them. The first thing is informing or suggesting to the highest levels of our government to recognize the importance of immigrants in our economy. And without question, the last several governors who we have had in the state have celebrated the contributions of immigrants. Governor Baker himself has done so much to make sure the immigrant communities understand that they are valued and welcome in the economy, and that they are aware that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts cares. Just a few days ago, Governor Baker was among the first governors in the entire United States to issue a statement advising all Afghan citizens of the Commonwealth that they are welcome here, that we are here to help them find solutions. He has repeatedly spoken in public about the need for immigrants to get COVID testing and vaccines, and he’s even let the undocumented immigrant community know that they are absolutely welcome to participate in COVID vaccines and COVID testing. This doesn’t go on around the entire country. Another recommendation of the group you’re talking about was to find ways to integrate legal immigrants in the Commonwealth into the professions and everyday fabric of American life in the Commonwealth. And since that recommendation has been made, a lot of money has been put into the state budget to help integration, starting with naturalization. It’s really hard to integrate immigrants if they don’t want to step forward and be part of the Massachusetts cultural and civic environment, and naturalizing foreign nationals who are eligible to become legal citizens of the United States is really the starting point. So ever since the Commonwealth has added to its budget the efforts of the Massachusetts Office of Refugees and Immigrants to help naturalize foreign nationals, I think the number of naturalizations of Massachusetts immigrants has just exponentially expanded, I can’t give you the exact number. One of the biggest parts of the New American Agenda was to find ways to help new Americans, legal foreign nationals, work in the very careers in which they were trained outside the U.S., specifically doctors and nurses. And the Commonwealth successfully did help foreign doctors who might not yet be licensed due to the very restrictive licensing rules we have in the Commonwealth and across the United States for doctors. There was the ability during the COVID crisis to permit foreign doctors to help with some of the urgent medical needs that came about during COVID. 

Denzil Mohammed: You did make a lot of distinctions in terms of what Massachusetts has done for legal immigrants, and you did mention COVID testing for undocumented immigrants. I would venture to suggest that immigrants, documented or not, are all part of our economy. You take undocumented immigrants out, and who’s going to pick half of the fruits and vegetables in this country, who is going to take care of the sick? So in a sense, you can’t always parse out, let’s say for instance, federal aid that went out last year, not to families with undocumented immigrants. Massachusetts nonprofits got together and formed the MassUndocuFund to help fill that gap. Several other states, even red states, have done things that Massachusetts has not for its undocumented population. Things like offering in-state tuition to undocumented students, something as simple as that, so that they could continue and contribute more. Where do you see Massachusetts having not met the grade? 

Jeff Goldman: I think Massachusetts celebrates immigrants. I think we do a lot to help even the undocumented. However, it is true, we have not passed a law allowing for in-state tuition, and we have not passed a law allowing undocumented people to have driver’s licenses, even though there’s much out there showing that this is a benefit to all, that it does not take away. It’s a very sensitive subject. And I can’t say I support, but I respect Governor Baker’s opinion that now is not the time to push these issues. But I think overall, even undocumented people would say that Massachusetts has done a pretty good job of helping them with their lives and permitting them to continue to add to the economy as best as they can. But we’re progressive, we’re smart. We understand the deep, deep connection between all immigrants, both documented and undocumented, in this economy. 

Denzil Mohammed: Jeff Goldman, I could talk to you forever about these topics, and there’s so much more I want to get into, but I think we’re out of time for JobMakers this week. Thank you so much for making the time to do this. I really appreciate your insights, your perspectives and the information that you were able to bring to the audience. Thank you so much. 

Jeff Goldman: Thank you, Denzil, and thanks to all the listeners out there for listening to me today. Have a great day. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center of Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s fascinating discussion on how immigrant talent makes a better U.S. If you know someone we should talk to, email Leave us a review on your favorite streaming service, too. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 23: Trevor Mattos

JobMakers podcast logo: Trevor Mattos shows how Massachusetts runs on immigrantsOn behalf of The Boston Foundation, Trevor Mattos studies how immigrants have positively impacted the economy in every sector, from small businesses to biotech. His work goes beyond the economy, though, and demonstrates how diversity itself is an incredible benefit to U.S.-born and foreign-born Americans. Listen to learn how he can prove it.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Did you know that without immigration, Massachusetts would have lost congressional seats? Immigrants made up 90 percent of the region’s population rebound since 1990. Indeed, Massachusetts has always run on immigrants. In 1910, 36 percent of Boston’s population was born outside the country. In the Commonwealth today, there are more than one million immigrants making up about one in six residents. And while the immigrants of today may come from different parts of the world than before, the reasons are the same as they were back in 1910, freedom, opportunity, a better life. For Trevor Mattos, research manager at Boston Indicators, the research center at The Boston Foundation, educating those in city government and on Beacon Hill on the important contributions of immigrants is paramount, particularly in a time of divisive misinformation about immigrants and the precariousness of the pandemic. Trevor’s research reveals the disproportionately large impact immigrant workers, entrepreneurs and innovators are having on the local economy, from Kendall Square in Cambridge to the Latin Quarter in Jamaica Plain. His research goes further, however, to show how our increasing diversity enriches the lives of all Americans, new or old, and gives us a competitive edge, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: Trevor Mattos of the Boston Indicators project, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. 

Trevor Mattos: Thanks for having me. 

Denzil Mohammed: So tell us about your organization and mission. What do you do and why do you do it? 

Trevor Mattos: So I am the Research Manager of Boston Indicators, which is the research center based at The Boston Foundation, which of course is the longstanding community foundation of our region of Greater Boston. What I do is analyze key indicators of social economic wellbeing. We research ideas for making our city, and I’m curving a little bit from our mission statement here, to make our city more prosperous, more equitable, more just. And we do a lot of this in partnership with other researchers, civic leaders, community groups. The output of all of that is oftentimes reports, research briefs, public forums. In the context of the pandemic all that’s virtual, but normally we’d get a whole bunch of people together at The Boston Foundation offices downtown and present some findings, have a discussion. At least from my personal perspective, I’ve always been interested in using rigorous analysis, research, to better understand our economic challenges, and the opportunities that are facing our population. Ultimately, full disclosure, what I’m interested in is creating positive change, reducing poverty, increasing access to opportunity more broadly. And then there’s a little bit of the personal side too, where, at least for the context of today’s discussion, I’m a second generation immigrant with family roots back in Peru and South America. I’m pretty deeply inspired by the courage and the journeys that immigrants like my mother took to the United States, and many others do every year, in pursuit of greater opportunity. So that’s sort of what brings me to the work, a little bit of my vantage point, if you will. 

Denzil Mohammed: You brought up making Boston more prosperous, equitable and just. If you had to rank those as to what really guides your research, what would you say is number one? 

Trevor Mattos: I would say the question of equity, and I’m using that in a really broad way. Certainly racial equity is a very important part of the work that we do, but economic inequality, in its own right, I think is a big issue in Boston, in our region, in our state. And we are a very wealthy state. So I think I’m interested in more equity. And so it gets back to the shared prosperity as well. I don’t know, how’s that for a ranking? [laughs] 

Denzil Mohammed: Sure, I mean, more equitable prosperity!  

Trevor Mattos: It’s all very intertwined. 

Denzil Mohammed: Exactly. So you’ve been able to see immigration in Boston, but I’m sure you also have a sort of historical perspective on Boston and the Greater Boston region’s immigrants. Who are Boston’s immigrants and how has it changed over the years? 

Trevor Mattos: So we have all kinds of different immigrants coming from all parts of the world. Really, really diverse group of people with many different skills and talents and experiences. I can say that looking back several decades, if we were say back in 1990, you’d see top immigrant subgroups in Greater Boston: Canada, Italy and Portugal, more of that former wave of immigration. Whereas more recently, if you look around, what we’re seeing is large and growing immigrant populations from China, from the Dominican Republic, from Brazil. So you can see they’re both different regions, but also sort of spread far and wide as well more recently. 

Denzil Mohammed: And one thing that’s unique about Massachusetts is that we don’t have one particular sending country that sort of outnumbers all the others, like the top three or the top five are almost neck and neck: China, Dominican Republic, Brazil, Haiti. So that’s something different as opposed to places like Texas or Florida, where you have Mexicans and Cubans. So from your research, what has been the impact of immigration on Greater Boston or Massachusetts? Has it been positive or negative, and in what areas have you seen this negative or positive impact? 

Trevor Mattos: Great question. I would certainly characterize it as positive. That’s my perspective, I think there’s good evidence to support it. If you sort of take a look back, I don’t think Greater Boston has always attracted the highly educated immigrant workforce that it does today, but it certainly does today. And I think this is part of the broader, longer-term changes that we’ve seen in the local economy. The economy of today is vastly different than it was even 15, 20 years ago, let alone if you look further back than that. But I would say, in terms of an impact, one thing that was definitely true then, and it is now as well, is that the vast majority of immigrants, they come to Boston to work hard, they make vital contributions, I would argue, to our communities, they have very high rates of labor force participation, many of them are very highly educated. There’s sort of two different slices, I guess, of our broader immigrant population in the region, and not all are highly educated, but many of them are. And in fact, they are overall, I would say, more highly educated than the U.S. population is, broadly speaking. So including both native and foreignborn, the total U.S. population has a lower rate of higher education than you’d see among immigrants in Greater Boston. So I think that just brings a lot of value. And even immigrants that come with less education are also working in really important industries and occupations. They’re working in agriculture, manufacturing, construction, food, hospitality. These are core sectors of our economy. And when you think about it just on scale, if you think about the state overall, state’s got seven million people in itI think we’re talking 1.2 million immigrants in the mix. One in six residents of Massachusetts is an immigrant. So you can think about just how critical that is to making our economy function. In terms of other characteristics, other sort of economic impact that immigrants have, there arthese trends that you see where when there’s a scarcity of labor, research shows that immigrants are more agile in going to fill open jobs in different regions, different parts of the state, different parts of the country. So we benefit from that. And then another big thing, and this is true in Massachusetts as much as it is anywhere else in the country, and this has to do with our aging population. And so I think immigrants are sort of mitigating the impact of the older, whiter population aging out of the workforce, which of course also brings with it a whole bunch of value. 

Denzil Mohammed: I find it fascinating that you talked about lowskilled immigrants in our region’s past. And we think about people who came to New Bedford as fishermen from Portugal. And we also have lowerskilled immigrants today who are cleaning buildings. And we see that, especially during the COVID pandemic, they make up such great proportions, almost half of our agricultural workforce, but they’re also three tenths of our physicians and huge numbers of our home health aides. People seem to forget that low-skilled immigrants have always been attracted to the U.S., as well as high-skilled immigrants, but it’s those people who had their backs against the wall, who didn’t have opportunity, who didn’t have choice back then, whether it was the Irish Potato Famine, whether it was war and genocide, whether it was a Holocaust, whether it was natural disaster that forced them to flee. And another thing you brought up was the nimbleness of immigrants when it comes to work. A lot of people seem to have the perception that, if you make somewhere a sanctuary city, immigrants are going to flock there, and there’s going to be all these negative consequences, or if you have driver’s license for undocumented immigrants, that’s what moves them. No, they go where the jobs are. They go to the poultry factories, they go to the meat packing plants in Nebraska, non-traditional gateway cities. And we’ve always seen that throughout our history, right? 

Trevor Mattos: Absolutely. And I would add to that, that there’s I think another misconception, or certainly a debate that’s raged on for quite some time, even amongst the economists that are out there, that has to do with the idea of immigrants going to take the jobs of other deserving, native-born workers. And although some of the econometric, technical parts of that debate seemed to rage on pretty endlessly, I would say that there is a consensus that when immigrants go and they work and they start businesses, that they’re just growing the economy, there’s a multiplier effect here. And so when you really look at things in the aggregate, I think not only is it the case that there’s a good deal of consensus that immigrants aren’t coming to take our jobs, but it’s that, more broadly, they’re adding so much more to the economy. Every dollar that they are spending, every job that they’re creating in their businesses, it just sort of adds extra fuel to the economy, which is so important as well. 

Denzil Mohammed: And I want to remind our listeners that in 1910, the foreign-born population of Boston was 36 percent. It’s 28 percent today, but it’s not the highest it’s ever been. So it’s not something that’s as [inaudible] as it has been in Boston’s past. And as we bring up the past, population loss. We recently had census data released and certain states lost congressional seats like California, and others gained like Texas. Massachusetts was able to hold onto all of its congressional seats. Why did that happen? What was responsible for that? 

Trevor Mattos: I would certainly point to growth in the immigrant population. I know that the data we’ve crunched shows that since 1990, more than 90 percent of our net population growth has been due to new immigrants coming into our region. So, that just speaks volumes about, you know, could you imagine what would have happened in the absence of that population growth? So I think that’s just huge. And when you look at the specific groups, folks of Latinx origins have among one of the highest rates of growth of any racial group in Greater Boston. At one point back in 1990, we saw them at less than 5 percent of our region’s total population. They’re now pushing 13 percent Asian Americans were, back in 1990, less than 3 percent of our region’s population. Now they’re pushing almost 10 percent. So you see really, really fast growth that as you point out, has been vital for our civic life and our wellbeing in a much broader sense as a state. 

Denzil Mohammed: According to researcher David Kalik, no metro city has been able to rebound from the slump in the sixties and seventies without immigration. Not that immigration caused their economic prosperity from the 2000s onward, from 1990 onward, but mostly it hasn’t been able to do it without international migration. That’s a really, really important point. Tell me about what role immigrants play in our workforce, and talk about your experience with immigrants as entrepreneurs. 

Trevor Mattos: Absolutely. And just to add a little color behind some of that as well, I would suggest that immigrants, even beyond just the raw economic contributions, which I’ll get into in just a moment, are bringing a level of diversity, there’s ethnic and racial diversity, but there’s also diversity of thought, and I would suggest that that is part of the creativity as well. There’s another linkage there where we see the innovative spirit that you’re getting at. So huge swaths of our frontline workforce that have sustained us all during the pandemic are indeed entrepreneurs. But beyond that, as you mentioned, there’s so much innovation, there’s so much of an entrepreneurial spirit. And we’ve done a little bit of research on this recently at Boston Indicators, and at the very least, I know, to put one number in your mind, that nationally speaking, some of the most recent data suggest that immigrants have a rate of entrepreneurship that is double that of nativeborn workers. And we see that play out all throughout our region, but I think as we are trying to transition out of this pandemic, as we’re trying to look towards a recovery, these are the job creators, these are the creators of new ideas, really adding so much value. 

Denzil Mohammed: So you’re saying that immigrants are JobMakers. 

Trevor Mattos: [Laughs] That’s exactly right, yes. 

Denzil Mohammed: Dig a little bit deeper into immigrant entrepreneurship. As you said, immigrants are twice as likely to found a business compared to the U.S.-born. Even during the Great Recession, the rate of business generation among immigrants increased, whereas it decreased among the U.S.-born, and I think that points to the nimbleness that you spoke about earlier. They are able to adapt to these changing environments, just because of the fact that they’ve moved to another country, they’ve had to adapt to different laws, different cultures, different languages. And I do also like the idea that you brought about when it comes to diversity. Diversity is a contentious issue for some people as though the U.S. is, and has always been, some sort of homogenous nation, but what’s our favorite fast food? Taco Bell. We are lucky to be able to have Thai food and Mexican food and Chinese food. And that’s just one example of how immigration has enriched the U.S. Italian food, Irish food, German food. Apple pie is not even an American thing, it was brought over here with foreign influences. So the idea of diversity somehow being negative, I think some people probably have fallen into an area where they just are accustomed to it, and they don’t realize the diversity that has made the U.S. what it is. But again, going into entrepreneurship a little bit, can you highlight some areas of Greater Boston or industries that have specifically benefited from immigrants starting businesses? 

Trevor Mattos: You see the impact of that entrepreneurial spirit, and even just taking a step back from entrepreneurship, just of the high level of skill that so many immigrants bring. And so I think you’re right to think about Cambridge, to think about the 128 corridor, where you have tech, you have pharmaceuticals, and you have folks coming in with a lot of educational skills, folks that are coming from other countries to gain those skills at our universities, and then, I think in the best case scenario, sticking around to start new companies, and to sort of drive the clusters of innovation that we see in places like Kendall Square in Cambridge. But I think there’s one that hits perhaps a little closer to home for our day in, day out lives, walking up and down the streets, it’s looking more closely at the main street businesses that we go into on a more regular basis, I think shape our day-to-day lives a bit more. And I can think of two examples in Boston. One of them is the neighborhood that I live in, and this is in Jamaica Plain’s Latin Quarter in Hyde Square. The other one is in Dorchester in Field’s Corner. And I think these are two super vibrant examples, two places that have benefited tremendously from immigrant entrepreneurs. And you name I think probably one of our favorite examples, just being the variety of cuisine. I think we are so blessed, certainly in my neighborhood in JP, whether it’s Dominican, Cuban, all kinds of different Latin American restaurants that have cropped up, and then looking over to Field’s Corner, to Savin Hill in Dorchester, seeing all the Vietnamese offerings, but we also happen to have two Ethiopian restaurants just around the corner, and it’s a privilege to be able to enjoy some of those amenities, I would say. 

Denzil MohammedEthiopian food in the Latin Quarter, are you serious? 

Trevor Mattos: I am so serious about that [laughs]. The Blue Nile, check it out. 

Denzil Mohammed: Oh right, I forgot about that! So, given this net economic benefit that you’re talking about, this complementary workforce, this larger than population labor force participation, this great economic benefit that we’ve had, what is your view on what has been happening in the past few years with the federal administration’s dramatic crackdown on legal immigration to the U.S.? 

Trevor Mattos: So perhaps unsurprisingly to your listeners, I’m quite critical of the way, certainly the Trump administration, attacked our immigration system at all levels. That isn’t to suggest that other Democratic administrations haven’t been part of the problem in some cases, I would certainly contend that as well. But I think the nature of the actions that the Trump administration took were just kind of on another level. And I think Trump and his allies, they really cut to the core of the legal structures that are in place to serve immigrants, and many of these immigrants were fleeing instability, fleeing violence. And it’s worth saying, perhaps as an aside, that many of the countries, not all, but some of them certainly in Central America, that immigrants are fleeing, you know, we have a large and growing Salvadoran population in Greater Boston, think of Chelsea, East Boston, et cetera. That’s a country that the United States has a long history of involvement with, and I think some of the instability we see today is not at all disconnected from the interventions of the past. The changes that the Trump administration made, many of the times through just executive order, through rule changes, they really completely subverted what had been codified into law, and asylum is one example of this. They basically threw due process out the window when it came to immigrants coming to the Southern border. 

Denzil Mohammed: It’s funny that you mentioned U.S. involvement in other countries instability, which leads to more immigrants, refugees and asylees from these countries. One word: Afghanistan. And what will our reaction be, particularly in certain parts of the country, about resettling Afghan families who are fleeing what is certainly to be a very devastating Taliban administration? Whether you’re talking about economics, or social issues, or cultural issues, immigration is tied into our communities, our industries, our labor force. So it’s not a separate issue. If you take immigrants out, whether it’s documented or undocumented immigrants, everyone is going to feel the impact. Everyone will suffer. That’s a really important point, and I’m glad that you made it. The lines are blurred, and it’s always been that way, because America has always been a nation that has been founded on the idea of attracting people from other places whose commonality is not their ancestry or their religion, but their desire for freedom and opportunity. Would you agree? 

Trevor Mattos: I would, absolutely. Very well said. 

Denzil Mohammed: Thank you so much, Trevor Mattos of Boston Indicators, for joining us on JobMakers. It was a real pleasure talking to you. 

Trevor Mattos: Yes, thank you so much for having me.  

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contributions produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center of Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s fascinating discussion on how immigrants have enriched Massachusetts. If you know someone we should talk to, email Leave us a review on your favorite streaming service too. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 22: Danielle Goldman

JobMakers podcast logo: Danielle Goldman on why the U.S. needs immigrant talentDanielle Goldman joins the podcast to discuss how she helps growing companies connect with in-demand, highly skilled immigrant workers. Through Open Avenues Foundation, Goldman “opens avenues” for the United States to welcome foreign-born innovators and entrepreneurs. Tune in to discover how a well-timed H-1B visa is responsible for a technology that many businesses and families have relied upon during the COVID-19 crisis.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is JobMakers. 

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Denzil Mohammed: I know, we’re all “Zoomed” out. A year and a half of Zoom classes and meetings and interviews has definitely taken its toll. But ultimately, aren’t we incredibly grateful and lucky to have had this technology in the first place? For our kids, our jobs, our health care, even to see family members we couldn’t visit? But do you know why we were so lucky to have Zoom? Because after getting rejected for a visa eight times, the U.S. finally allowed Eric Yuan from China, Zoom’s founder, to come and stay in the U.S. For Danielle Goldman, co-founder and executive director of the Open Avenues Foundation in Boston, Yuan is an important example of why the U.S. needs to retain the high skill, foreign-born students and workers who benefit from a U.S. higher education. The Open Avenues Foundation developed a unique model that affords high-growth companies and start-ups the chance to retain the talent they need through cap-exempt H1-B visas, no matter where they come from, in highly competitive industries where talent is scarce. This grows our workforce to the benefit of American workers. And, as we saw with Zoom, can create indispensable innovation when we need it most, as you learn in this week’s JobMakers.  

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Denzil Mohammed: Danielle Goldman, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. 

Danielle Goldman: Thanks so much for having me, Denzil. 

Denzil Mohammed: Tell us a little bit about the Open Avenues Foundation. 

Danielle Goldman: Open Avenues is a non-profit based here in Massachusetts. We were started in 2018 at the height of the Trump administration and everything that was going on with migrant families being separated at the border. I was actually working as a consultant at the time, not in anything immigration related, but I grew up with an immigration attorney as a father and it was a huge part of my life, and so my father and I actually co-founded Open Avenues to change the narrative about immigrants and demonstrate the value of foreign nationals in the United States. We felt like that was a really important story to tell in that moment. Open Avenues is a non-profit that’s actually education-focused, and we are working to demonstrate that foreign nationals can actually train the future workforce. So Open Avenues is a workforce development program, we are really excited about the fellowship that we run and I’m sure we’ll dive into that a bit more in a few minutes, but ultimately, we’re showcasing that foreign nationals in the U.S. are very talented individuals who are working at high-growth companies and can also create jobs for U.S. workers. 

Denzil Mohammed: Explain to me that very important point of the value of foreign-born high-skilled workers to the U.S. as a whole. 

Danielle Goldman: Open Avenues partners with high-growth companies typically in STEM fields, but we also work with companies in finance and business. Our companies are coming to us. Typically we work with HR professionals who are managing talent acquisition and trying to find ways to fill their talent gaps at the companies and we are a solution for them to retain foreign talent. Our global talent fellowship is a visa solution, it’s a leadership development solution for these foreign nationals, and when I talk to HR representatives the reason why they’re willing to invest right now in foreign talent and nominate them for our global talent fellowship program is because there are talent challenges at these growing companies. They have tens to hundreds of job openings in these technical STEM fields, and even if they don’t have job openings, sometimes they’ve just identified a really extraordinary candidate from outside of the United States. I think one of the things I’ve learned is that people and talent are not just numbers. They’re not just seats that are filled. Companies are looking for the best of the best and when they find them, they will do anything to have them stay in the U.S. and help them grow their companies, and sometimes those individuals are foreign nationals and they need to find ways as an employer to ensure that that those individuals can continue to help them grow their companies. 

Denzil Mohammed: You talk about how the challenges of finding talent, the challenges of retaining talent, depending on where they come from, is extraordinary when it comes to our immigration system. Could you just give us a sense of what this work visa is like and how it poses a challenge to companies? 

Danielle Goldman: Yeah. It’s really important to understand that our country’s top work visa, the most popular work visa, is called the H-1B, and it is built upon a randomized lottery system. We have hundreds of thousands of international students in the United States right now who are graduating from U.S. universities, they are educated by U.S. professors, they intern at U.S. companies and they’re getting a U.S. education. And when they graduate they are given practical training, optional practical training, from the U.S. government, and that’s one short opportunity they have. And after they finish their practical training the number one, and really for many people the only pathway they have, is to enter into this randomized lottery system which is capped at 85,000 individuals per year. So we’re looking at hundreds of thousands of individuals finishing O.P.T. (optional practical training) every year after receiving a U.S. education and then having to enter a randomized lottery. And hundreds of thousands of individuals are getting shut out. And the only option for some of those individuals is to go home, and that is really challenging and frustrating for companies who have invested in hiring those individuals for a few years during their O.P.T, and it’s really frustrating for the foreign nationals who have received this U.S. education and are willing to invest their talent into U.S. companies. It doesn’t really make sense from that perspective. There are a few organizations that are exempt from this lottery system, they’re called “cap exempt organizations,” and that’s what Open Avenues is. We’re a non-profit that is affiliated with the universities and we are exempt from this cap. 

Denzil Mohammed: That’s a really good explanation. You know getting that U.S. education, paying into U.S. universities as an international student, is so much more than in-state tuition. First of all, it’s a lifeline for many schools, and having that talent, growing that talent, and then shutting them out seems to not make a lot of sense. The H-1B has been a very contentious issue for many years I know, but the fact is shutting out talent really is not going to benefit the U.S. and that just seems to be a no-brainer. Tell us a little bit about how your program works, the nuts and bolts of it, and where that inspiration came from. 

Danielle Goldman: Sure. So as I started to mention, there are few organizations that are exempt from this H-1B lottery system. Congress deemed these types of institutions exempt because Congress knows the value that these organizations can provide to U.S. society. The four types of organizations are universities, non-profit research institutions, government research institutions, and non-profits that are affiliated or partnered with universities. And Open Avenues is a non-profit that is affiliated with universities. So Open Avenues is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, we actually go into affiliation and sign partnership agreements with our university partners around the United States, and what we do is we’ve built a fellowship program where we’re able to hire global talent who are working at high-growth companies who have been shut out of this lottery system and we are able to hire them for five hours per week of part-time work. And during that time we have them placed at our university partners and they launch career development and STEM education projects for students to train in those fields, get experiential learning and prepare to enter that future workforce. We call this the Global Talent Fellowship because our fellows are international individuals working at high-growth companies. In terms of inspiration, all of this again stems from our mission to demonstrate the value of foreign talent. My co-founder Jeff has a long history of innovation within immigration, he’s very entrepreneurial in the space, he started the Global Entrepreneur in Residence (“GEIR”) program with Governor Deval Patrick back in 2016, which also leverages the cap-exempt H-1B portion of immigration law with universities. And the GEIR program does the same model for universities and is open to founders. Open Avenues Foundation has built a program that leverages the cap exempt H-1B visa but helps mid- to senior-level employees who are critical to the growth of companies stay here in the United States through our fellowship. 

Denzil Mohammed: And might I remind our listeners that Zoom was founded by an immigrant, a high-skilled immigrant. 

Danielle Goldman: [laughs] Very important point. 

Denzil Mohammed: There is a narrative out there that a foreign-trained, foreign-born worker comes in and gets a job, that’s one less job for Americans. Anyone who studies economics knows that the economy is far more complex than that. I want to learn more about some of your fellows and some of their stories. Explain to me, and explain to our listeners, how this benefits the U.S. 

Danielle Goldman: Our fellows range from founders of companies, some are mid- to senior-level employees at companies, all of them are owning projects, owning products and building out teams. When they grow their product at a company, or when they conduct their research at a company, what ultimately happens is there is a demand for more talent to support what they develop. It happens with our mid-level scientists who are working at therapeutic companies and developing new technologies or new therapies where their research ultimately leads to more jobs being created. It happens when our founders are able to stay in the United States and ultimately build their companies here and hire talent. So I can tell you through the stories of our fellows, but that’s what ultimately happens, economics aside this is literally happening on the ground in front of me, I have the picture in my head of what is happening, and Open Avenues continues to try to share these stories of the successes of when our fellows stay in the United States, what they are able to build for their companies, which translates to new jobs. And on the other side of what we do, our fellows are training U.S. students to go into their field, so we are also showing that when foreign nationals stay in the United States they are able to contribute to the growth of U.S. students and open jobs for these students.  Our fellows are thrilled to contribute to U.S. society and say, ‘we love to be here in the United States, we feel lucky to be growing careers here, and we want to give back.’ They want to ensure that U.S. students at community colleges and technical institutions, these are the schools we’re partnered with by the way, that the students who are from underrepresented communities, from the middle of the country, that those individuals who might not have been exposed to some of these high-growth companies yet are connected through our fellows to these hiring companies. And that is really important for the economic growth in the United States. 

Denzil Mohammed: You talk about immigrants as job-makers, that’s such a unique thing to say!  

Danielle Goldman: [laughs]

Denzil Mohammed: Immigrants are twice as likely to start a business, we know that they are the ones who are driving the growth of mainstream businesses. If we did not have immigrants we would not have the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, they both had immigrant founders. Tell us another story, as you intimated a moment ago, this idea of these foreign-trained people who study here wanting to give back. That’s a narrative we don’t hear a lot about, either. 

Danielle Goldman: Yeah it’s true, we definitely know that that’s the sentiment. You don’t learn about that sentiment of giving back, necessarily, from news articles, right, but when you talk to immigrants and you have conversations with these individuals, these individuals really appreciate the opportunities that they are given in the United States and I find from my conversations that it actually is really exciting for them to be able to also contribute here. It’s how people feel included, by giving back to society and by doing more for others, you actually feel like you are part of that society and not a stranger or on the outside. So our foreign talent love to be part of this of this fellowship and it’s absolutely one of the benefits that foreign talent get when they participate, is that inclusion. And companies know that, that’s part of why companies want their foreign nationals to participate in our program, because it is a major benefit for them.  

Danielle Goldman: Regarding some of our stories, we have an amazing cohort of talent. First of all, the companies we partner with are really exciting. I encourage anyone who’s listening to go to our website and take a look, at bottom of our home page we have the 30 logos from our partner companies that are linked to their websites, and we’re just so excited by the growing partnerships. Our partners are working across STEM fields, we are looking for high-growth companies that are focused on some of our biggest challenges in the United States and are also innovating and creating new technologies. We have startup companies that are working on micro-bakeries because COVID really changed the way that we eat, and they’re driven by robots which is just really cool and innovative. We have fellows that are working on cancer therapies for pharmaceutical companies, we have bioinformatics fellows working on A.I. to address precision medicine and questions in precision medicine. One of my favorite stories is from during COVID. We had a fellow working at a company based in Cambridge, it was a company out of MIT Media Lab, it was a 3D printing company and they were able to print materials that were going to be used across industries. One of the industries that they wanted to use these materials for was the medical device industry, but they hadn’t really tapped into the market yet. And then COVID hit, and they had the machines built they had the software ready to go, and what they did was they ended up printing testing swabs, and they started to 3D print these testing swabs. And our fellow was the second employee at this company and led all of the software behind this. He was from Germany, hadn’t won the H-1B lottery, and was going to have to go home. He would have been printing those testing swabs but he would have been doing it somewhere else, because he’s such a brilliant human, and we were so excited to learn that this company, with Yannick our fellow on board, was able to pivot and address something that was so critical to the medical industry at the time and to the United States. And so that was just one story I love about what can happen when these minds and these individuals, this talent, are in the United States and are working for U.S. companies here. Our fellow led projects related to developing the software behind the 3D printing machines with our with our students at our university partners, so he was doing his awesome work and then also letting students know about this awesome work and training them to potentially do that work in the future. And that’s the beauty of this program,  it’s not just about the foreign nationals working for these high growth companies, it’s also about them enlightening and empowering students to also solve some of these pressing challenges for the United States.

Denzil Mohammed: Finally Danielle, if you had to succinctly make the case to the American public that high-skill workers who may have been born elsewhere are a net benefit to us, that their presence here is an asset to the country, to American workers, how would you frame that narrative? 

Danielle Goldman: The fact that Open Avenues Foundation needs to exist tells us that there is a problem within our current immigration system. It is not helping companies reach the level of talent they need, and retain the talent they need, to thrive. That is a huge problem for the growth of our economy. We need to empower companies to ultimately have the talent they need to grow to their optimal potential, and we’re not there right now. So, foreign nationals are filling these gaps, and more importantly they’re not just filling these gaps, they’re creating new gaps. Foreign nationals, as we talked about, are filling current gaps at U.S. companies that ultimately leads to new growth and new creation of new departments. It’s not a zero-sum game and we need to stop looking at it that way. We need to look at what happens over time through data points. Open Avenues is creating new data points that we can ultimately look at. When our foreign nationals are staying in the United States they are creating new jobs for our U.S. university partners and the students there, so that’s really exciting for us to be able to demonstrate. And ultimately, I’m going to have a much better answer for you, Denzil, because all of the data that we’re collecting is going to change this narrative and be able to show this succinctly, and I’m really excited that in the next few years we’re going to have a lot more data about what our fellows have been able to achieve and how many U.S. students have been placed at these companies. 

Denzil Mohammed: And you’re barely three years old as an organization. Danielle Goldman from the Open Avenues Foundation, thank you so much for joining us on JobMakers, it was a real pleasure to be enlightened on the kind of work that you’re doing and how important it is to America. 

Danielle Goldman: Denzil thanks so much for having me, it was a really important conversation, and I am thrilled to have it. 

Denzil Mohammed: JobMakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center of Massachusetts, the not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you so much for joining us for this week’s fascinating discussion on how immigrant talent makes a better U.S. if you know someone we should talk to, email Denzil at Leave us a review on your favorite streaming service, too. I’m Denzil Mohammed, join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers.

Episode 21: James Witte

JobMakers podcast logo: Prof. James Witte on immigration disinformationDirector of the Institute for Immigration Research James Witte shares how he uses immigration data, research and stories to combat misinformation and disinformation about immigrants. He also discusses the challenges of communicating accurate, data-based information in the current media ecosystem. Listen to hear an academic’s take on the positive impact of immigrants on the United States.

Episode 20: Sonny Vu

JobMakers podcast logo: Sonny Vu, former refugee, uses faith to drive innovationFleeing Vietnam and coming to the United States as a refugee instilled a strong work ethic and drive to succeed in Sonny Vu. As a serial tech entrepreneur, he has started companies worth hundreds of millions of dollars and created countless jobs. Listen to learn how he strives to create “positive, planet-level impact.” We have a full-length video interview from earlier in his career here.

Episode 19: Shane Smyth

JobMakers podcast logo: Shane Smyth on how immigrants saved restaurantsKeeping his five restaurants afloat through the COVID-19 crisis has given Shane Smyth unique insight into the role immigrant entrepreneurs like him play in the restaurant industry. Irish-born Smyth also discusses how immigrants make up one in five food prep and service workers and two in five agricultural workers. We have a full-length video interview here.

Episode 18: Anita Worden

JobMakers podcast logo: Anita Worden takes immigrants' skills to the next levelAs an English-born immigrant entrepreneur who founded a successful solar company, Anita Worden is passionate about welcoming immigrants and women into the growing renewable energy and tech sector. Listen to the episode to discover how she believes we can shift the narrative on immigration in the United States.

Episode 17: David Kallick

JobMakers podcast logo: David Dyssegaard Kallick on the facts about immigrationAs an economics professor and researcher, David Kallick has studied the many ways that immigrants and refugees contribute to our economy. In this episode of JobMakers, Kallick shares how immigrants revitalize metros, combat economic decline, reverse population loss, create jobs and more. Tune in to hear an academic’s take on the positive impact of immigrants on the United States economy.

Episode 16: Ely Kaplansky

JobMakers podcast logo: Ely Kaplansky goes from immigrant to Inc. 5000 insurance entrepreneurEly Kaplansky had an unconventional start. Born to parents who met in a concentration camp and moved to the United States for a better life, Kaplansky dropped out of high school before launching Kaplansky Insurance as a young man. Today, Kaplansky Insurance employs 85 employees in 15 offices across Massachusetts. Listen to learn how Kaplansky took advantage of all the freedom and opportunity he discovered in the United States.

Episode 15: Semyon Dukach

JobMakers podcast logo: Semyon Dukach on the high value of immigrants for the U.S. economyLongtime angel investor Semyon Dukach started One Way Ventures to invest in immigrant entrepreneurs after he noticed how well their startups performed. As a refugee from the Soviet Union, he knew the grit and resourcefulness it took to start over somewhere new. Learn how investing in immigrant talent has paid off for Dukach, the immigrant founders and the economy!

Episode 14: Jo Napolitano

JobMakers podcast logo: Jo Napolitano on the inspiring stories of immigrant childrenJo Napolitano believes that giving immigrant and refugee students access to a good education is both the most moral and the most practical choice. Drawing on her own experiences as an immigrant and her years of reporting, she discusses the unlocked potential of foreign-born students. Tune in to also discover what she learned reporting on students at the U.S.-Mexico border.

Episode 13: Umesh Bhuju

JobMakers podcast logo: Umesh Bhuju seeks a fair deal for immigrants, farmers & the environmentUmesh Bhuju’s exposure to child labor as a young person in Nepal inspired his current investment in fair trade practices. His coffee shop ensures that their products come from well-paid farmers using environmentally sustainable practices. Listen to discover how Bhuju is combating food insecurity during the pandemic even as his business faces challenges. We also have a full-length video interview here.

Episode 12: Babak Movassaghi

JobMakers podcast logo: Dr. Babak Movassaghi on winning football & healthcare innovationNavigating his identity as a German-Iranian-American pursuing the American Dream has given Dr. Babak Movassaghi the flexibility and creativity to reinvent himself several times. Whether he’s obtaining a PhD in Biomedical Engineering, captaining the German NFL football team or founding a company that revolutionizes telehealth, Movassaghi has used an immigrant mindset to thrive. Tune in to find out how his company has kept people safe during the COVID-19 pandemic with its telehealth platform.

Episode 11: Jitka Borowick

JobMakers podcast logo: Jitka Borowick on starting a small business during COVIDJitka Borowick, an immigrant entrepreneur from the Czech Republic, initially intended to spend just one year in the United States to learn English. She ended up moving to the United States permanently and founded Cleangreen, a cleaning service committed to environmentally-friendly practices, and Nove Yoga. Listen to learn about her difficulties learning another language and culture, her pathway to entrepreneurship and her courageous decision to open a new business during a pandemic.

Episode 10: Josh Feast

JobMakers podcast logo: Josh Feast Answers the Call With Artificial IntelligenceJosh Feast, an immigrant entrepreneur from New Zealand, has a goal anyone could get behind: make the call center experience better for everyone. In the latest JobMakers episode, he explains how he’s using AI to make it happen and creating over 200 jobs in the process. Listen to discover his perspective on ethics in the AI sector, what inspired him to enter the field and why he thinks “diversity defines America.”

Episode 9: Mahmud Jafri

JobMakers podcast logo: Mahmud Jafri Builds on a Pakistani Legacy in AmericaWhen Mahmud Jafri first came to the United States from Pakistan, he hit a “concrete ceiling” in the corporate world. He turned to entrepreneurship and started a business selling imported hand-knotted rugs. Through his business, Dover Rugs and Home, Jafri is creating opportunities in Massachusetts and for women artisans abroad. Learn how he believes integrating immigrants can benefit all U.S. residents! We also have a full-length video interview here.

Episode 8: Larry O’Toole

JobMakers podcast logo: Larry O'Toole on Workplace, Culture & Immigration PolicyLarry O’Toole has run his company, Gentle Giants Moving Company, for more than 40 years. He’s determined to ensure that all immigrants have the same opportunities that he did to fully participate in the economy and build something that will endure. That’s why he’s joined a group that promotes state and federal policies that foster complete economic integration of foreign-born talent and sustained prosperity for everyone. Listen to our interview to discover how he overcame the challenges of culture shock and discovered his untraditional path into entrepreneurship.

Episode 7: Amar Sawhney

JobMakers logo: Amar Sawhney on Sikhs, STEM & COVIDAmar Sawhney turned his initial struggles to find work after immigrating to the United States from India into motivation to pursue a PhD and become a serial entrepreneur. He has started eight companies, creating more than 4,000 jobs and $2 billion in revenue. Listen to our interview to discover how he overcame obstacles along the way, his perspective on the COVID-19 pandemic and what he wants people to know about Sikh Americans. We also have a full-length video interview from earlier in his entrepreneurship journey here.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers. JobMakers is a new podcast launched in March, produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Every Thursday at noon I talk with risk takers. Immigrants who create new jobs, products and services in Massachusetts and across the United States, building on the entrepreneurial spirit that led them to America in the first place. When we return, we’ll meet this week’s immigrant entrepreneur.

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Denzil Mohammed: The entrepreneurial spirit among immigrants and refugees allows them the flexibility to pursue unexpected courses of action, adapt, accept risk and make the most of opportunities they didn’t even know of before. For Dr. Amar Sawhney from India that started at the University of Texas at Austin with 30 job rejections out of 30 applications. But he set on a path that would see him go in directions hitherto unknown. Getting a Ph.D., helping found a company journeying to Boston and starting a string of new companies, using his chemical engineering background to save lives through remarkable local therapy innovations. To date, he has founded eight companies, accounting for 4,000 jobs at more than $2 billion in revenue. He’s been named a Champion of Change by the White House, one of the five most innovative medical device CEOs by Mass Device, the EY Regional Entrepreneur of the Year, even The Immigrant Learning Center’s own Immigrant Entrepreneur Award for Life Science Business. But his influence extends well beyond that space into environmental conservationism, safeguarding refugees, mentoring and promoting STEM education, and building public understanding of America’s Sikhs as you’ll hear in this week’s episode of JobMakers.

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Denzil Mohammed: Dr. Sawhney, thank you for joining us on JobMakers. I would ask you, typically, to describe your business, but for you I think I would want to ask you to describe the vision for your businesses and what kind of impact did you think your businesses would have.

Amar Sawhney: So the vision from my businesses is to be able to deliver local therapies that can make an impact in patients’ lives or meaningful impact in patients’ lives. What I mean by local therapies is often manifestation of disease that takes place at a fairly local site. And to be able to treat that with a local therapy is better than to treat it with a systemic therapy meaning giving it, for example, giving a pill that goes everywhere in your body versus what we have now created. For example, at one of my last companies, Ocular Theraputix, little inserts smaller than a rice grain that goes into your tear duct that replaces the entire course of eye drops after surgery. Similarly, we’ve done things where we have created spacers that go between the prostate and the rectum so that in another company, Augmenix which is now part of Boston Scientific, where we were able to minimize any radiation side effects so also that radiation which would otherwise cause complications for the patient for a lifetime. By use of this, it spares the rectum and the side effects that might come from it. So these are types of local therapies that we are creating, where now in my latest company Instylla, have a way to fill tumors with a liquid material that solidifies almost instantly and shuts down the blood supply thus shrinking them. So local therapies are using sometimes these types of materials, hydrogels that I have created for uses inside the body are basically a unifying theme.

Denzil Mohammed: And your journey toward this goal started through rejection, right? You were rejected from 30 jobs at the University of Texas. Describe what that was like and what led you to this path.

Amar Sawhney: Yeah, me, I had come from India to do my masters and PhD at the University of Texas. And in India had access to good jobs, higher education, etc. I actually rarely encountered failure. Generally most things had come fairly easily to me. So coming to the United States, I did my master’s degree, and I had gotten a scholarship for it. And I did what most people would do: Apply to all the campus jobs I could find. But since I did not have a green card, I did not have an H1 visa and at that time, this was back in ‘89, most of the U.S. companies were not as familiar with providing the paperwork and stuff needed for an immigrant. And as a result I applied to 30 jobs thinking that I just need one. I don’t need all of them to be successful. But since most of them didn’t understand what paperwork would be involved, they summarily rejected me, which was quite devastating. Now, I’d never had this type of rejection before and I wondered what had happened. I’d come to this new country, and was there something wrong with me? It’s a lot of introspection went into that. But rather than blame the system and complain about it, I think it’s important to be sort of positive, action oriented. I spoke to my advisor, Dr. Jeffrey Hubbell, who’s just a stellar individual himself. He advised me that you may want to consider doing a PhD. And to think about it, that would have been somewhat counterintuitive because you would think you just got rejected after doing a master’s. Do you really want to double up and do a PhD? But I did that and in that way did some really exciting, interesting work where we did chemistries inside the body that would kind of be, allow you to make … so 3D printing is all the rage right now. Back in ’89, ’90 we were doing this type of 3D printing, so to speak, or making materials inside the body using light and polymerizing them in very, very fast ways for forming implants in the body. And that created a couple of companies and that created my first job. So I moved to the Boston area as a result of that new company being founded, a company called Focal.

Denzil Mohammed: And I remember you talking to me about your journey into entrepreneurship and raising money and just the fascinating concept of you being a foreign individual in the U.S., admittedly looking different, sounding different. And yet people were willing to give you money for your ideas. Guide us through what that particular experience was like at first.

Amar Sawhney: Sure thing. Yeah, so I’ve always felt that being a Sikh obviously I look different. I wear a turban. Also, people look at you, they have so far almost a bipolar response, where on one hand they would view you as being foreign and different and things, but in this community of entrepreneurship and science and stuff, when people see somebody different, they actually may feel that you’ve been able to cross over difficulties and make your own path. So there may be something special about this person, whether there is or isn’t. I’m not saying that there’s anything special about me. But people’s perception, actually it can work in your favor as opposed to work against you if you have the self confidence to believe in yourself. If you don’t see yourself as being disadvantaged or somehow you’ve got a chip on your shoulder, or something of that sort. If you come across as being a person who is just, should be judged for what they do and not how they look, now soon people just look past it and it just, it becomes transparent. If you yourself feel that you are different all the time, then it comes across in how you walk, how you talk, and I think then it starts adding up.

Denzil Mohammed: Guide us through what it was like forming your first business, especially not having an MBA, not having that business experience. And what were the qualities you think reflecting back on that time that enabled you to be successful? Was it like a bug that bit you that you wanted to just sort of continue founding companies? Or was it something bigger?

Amar Sawhney: So I think you look at what you want to get out of life, right? Meaning there’s a few things people may want to get out of life. Certainly, economic outcomes are one aspect of it. So I will not say that that was not something that influenced my thinking, but beyond that, it’s a question of if you have the tools to make a difference and build products that will really help improve medical care, you would almost be negligent not to do that. You would be negligent if you’ve been given the opportunity and the privilege to have access to those technologies and you know how to do it. You’re not missing anything. Why would you not actually go out and create those products? So that was important for me because from a legacy standpoint, eventually you want to see how many lives did you touch? How many and what improvements were you able to create in care delivery? So that is what sort of keeps me going at that point in time. And it’s the economic outcome, while not zero, is definitely less of a factor relative to other things, so that’s what has kept me going.

Denzil Mohammed: And you talk about legacy and impacting lives. It’s at least 5,000,000 patients have benefited from your technologies, right?

Amar Sawhney: Definitely. We’re in fact over a million patients every year now are impacted by some of the products that we’ve been creating.

Denzil Mohammed: And what are some of the companies and projects you’re currently involved in?

Amar Sawhney: So currently I’m involved with one of my companies. Instylla is creating a liquid embolic product. A liquid embolic basically is a liquid material that can be delivered into flowing blood and can almost instantly shut down the flow of blood. Sometimes blood flows to undesirable locations such as tumors or a hemorrhage that might be taking place after a car accident, or there may be fistulas of some sort. So there are a number of reasons why blocking blood flow to certain sites is important. If you try right now, people try to put down little plastic balls and stuff like that, little beads to try to do that, or put coils then hope that the blood will clot around it, a little fuzzy hairball type of coils. But liquids will penetrate much deeper, and if they have water-based liquids with which to react almost instantly, we can cast out the tumor down to the capillary level and hopefully much more effectively treat. So that is something that Instylla is doing. We are in the midst of U.S. pivotal clinical trial in 25 sites and doing it in the midst of a pandemic is an interesting exercise, but we’re making good progress over there, so that’s one company. The other company is a company called Rejoni where we are creating materials that are for just inside the uterus. Lots of procedures are done for women inside the uterus, such as removal of fibroids or septae or polyps and things. When they’re cut out for people who are infertile and they need to be treated for this infertility or some other problem. But that resection can create scar and make them infertile further. It can fail. So we are developing systems material which would be administered inside the uterus [to] sort of serve as a bandage and a separator of the uterine walls for a couple of weeks and then allowed safely to absorb. Now women who get ablations done for severe menstrual bleeding, the ablations can cause severe scarring and lead to other complications, so hopefully this is a way for people who have late stage abortions, their uteruses are scraped up quite a bit and can cause scarring. So there were one and a half million women every year who have problems related to scarring from these so we hope to be able to prevent that. So that’s another thing that we’re doing. And the third thing that we’re doing is from my holding company. Pramon has been creating a hemostatic patch, something to stop severe bleeding from, say, the liver or spleen so you would within 30 seconds, you just hold this down. It’s a completely absorbable material. Within three days it could absorb, but at that point in time it almost within 30 seconds stops any kind of bleeding, no matter how strong. There’s nothing like it right now. There are products that J&J has which are, use body’s clotting kind of cascade materials, but this is completely synthetic, doesn’t cause any clotting issues, can be used with patients who are completely anticoagulated, so would be a big step forward in managing hemorrhage. So those are three projects I’m involved with. I’m on the board of several companies. One of the companies is developing clot retrieval systems, a company called Imperative Care, where we go deep inside the brain to pull clots out, meaning every day we’re getting stories of people who are, essentially would have been dead for life, a vegetable and we pull the clot out, and they wake up on on the table and they are able to talk again and and walk again and do the things.

Denzil Mohammed: As a serial entrepreneur, I think you’re in a really good place to talk about the biggest impediments for a successful business like the ones that you founded. And I’m thinking particularly about issues like finding talent, issues like regulation. And how is Massachusetts in a better position than other places to run these kinds of businesses?

Amar Sawhney: I think the regulations are what they are. And, yes, there are barriers but I think they are barriers that ensure good quality of products and its degree of professionalism that may be absent in some other parts of the world. So I think while we all have our moments where we curse the FDA, I think the FDA is a force for good and it helps protect consumers for making sure that the therapies and products that emerge from the medical device or the pharmaceutical industry truly have solid science. And with regards to Massachusetts being a good place, I think it definitely is, especially the Boston area meaning their talent availability, which, incidentally, as you pointed out, is one of the big bottlenecks in scaling businesses, in starting businesses. When you’re starting a business, you know it’s really hard to attract talent because people don’t know whether the business is going to be successful or not, or you’re in the early stages and you really want to hitch your wagon to something which could just be a dream. So getting talent at the initial stages is not hard for us, but at the later stages it becomes harder because now you’ve got many more people you need and you can’t just reach out to your own network. You’ve got to go out and find people just the way any other company finds people, through recruiters and referrals and whatnot. So what I would say is that if you treat people well, you treat people fairly, and that word gets around, people will come back and want to work with you again. So we’ve benefited a lot from that, that anytime I want somebody to come work with us, all we have to say is, mention that to them and they will drop anything that they’re doing and come and work for us. So we are fortunate because we’ve treated them well. Now when companies scale, it can be a challenge because the fight for talent in the Boston area is ferocious. There’s a lot of companies, and the pharma companies and biotech companies have a lot more money than my tech does, and their pay’s way better. So it can be a challenge to try to attract talent as we scale forward.

Denzil Mohammed: And so leaning into the issue of the, how attractive STEM is to students in the U.S. What are your thoughts on just how STEM is perceived or how attractive it is to young people and is the U.S. doing enough to really foster an environment where students would be interested in these fields?

Amar Sawhney: Yeah, you’re putting your finger on something very important, meaning I sometimes go to graduations, for example, meaning I have gone to my alma mater, University of Texas’ graduation. And I remember sitting on the stage, looking at the people crossing the podium. They are receiving their degrees. And I would say more than half were not first generation, at least Americans. So there were so many of them who were of Chinese origin, Indian origin, Korean origin, etc. And I looked at that message, not that that’s a bad thing, but why are not more mainstream Americans pursuing science? But I know that this is something that is near and dear to both my wife Deepika who’s big on the education side of things. And our whole family, meaning we’ve tried to do it from my kids actually helping with mentor children. My son is the captain of his robotics team. My daughter is the captain of the National [inaudible] Lexington High School, and she mentored as many kids as possible to be able to ensure that STEM is not perceived as something that is either hard or foreign or not an attractive career or just difficult, especially with girls after middle school, making sure that those seeds are planted early on, that they continue. So I do feel that we are not doing enough to make it attractive as a choice and it may be perceived as being formidable for whatever reason. It isn’t. It’s not hard. Don’t dream small is what I would say to anybody. What’s the point of dreaming small? If you’re going to dream, you might as well dream big.

Denzil Mohammed: Oh, that is such, such a lovely thing to say. It’s excellent advice. You’ve impacted millions of lives and created over $1.5 billion dollars in revenue. But your heart and the impact and legacy that you want to have extends beyond just your businesses. Through your foundation, you have approached issues that are probably out of the mainstream lens. Can you talk a little bit about those issues?

Amar Sawhney: I came to the conclusion that the trillions of dollars that we are spending as the world and country to try to tackle this pandemic, we’re trying to put out a fire. We’re not asking the question, where did the fire start and why did the fire start in the first place? Why do these zoonotic organisms migrate out from deep forests and end up creating these pandemics? Why does that happen? Why do they cross species? Why do they go from bats to humans? And if you sit and analyze that, you come to the conclusion that it is because of depredation of the forests and environment and of man-animal conflict through wildlife trafficking, where bats that were living quietly in a cave are now being grabbed by nets and sold in markets where they harbor these pathogens. Those drip onto civet cats and to pangolins that are being exploited and coming from far away nations, being slaughtered in the Chinese market for example. And that contaminated product, either somebody touches their nose while they’re in the midst of that process, and suddenly it transfers from the bat to the pangolin to the human, and then that person goes and spreads it, and the pandemics originate. So what’s the solution to this? It’s not to be able to come up with only new vaccines, although we need to do that to control this and that is what is needed, but we gotta prevent the fires from starting. We cannot keep spending trillions of dollars putting fires out. And there are probably 500,000 more of these types of viruses out there in the wild waiting to get out if we keep encroaching upon that habitat and we keep exploiting these species. So I’ve been spending a lot of my energy, time, money, on preventing wildlife trafficking. And to be able to not only save species like rhinos and elephant ivory and all those types of things, but also trafficking of a number of other types of [inaudible] animals. And smugglers, these are the same gangs that either traffic humans, traffic animals, they traffic drugs, that they launder money, so it’s that same network. And to be able to go after these folks and prevent this from happening and to be able to put solid worldwide type of regulations, that country is gonna rally together and put in place. Otherwise it’s like a balloon. You squeeze one side, they go to another side. We try to work with the Thai authorities, they’ll go through Laos. But you know the demand has to be shut down and demand comes from China. It comes from U.S. U.S. is the second largest demand point for wildlife products. China is the first. So to be able to do this so that we not only have a legacy where we can continue to enjoy environments which are unpolluted and wildlife species that still exist, but it’s also self preservation now. This is some of the big picture that I want to spend. We do a number of other things which are related to education and human welfare, etc., now, but I think those are all more to alleviate my own conscience than to actually make a real impact. To make a real impact, I think it’s the preventing wildlife trafficking and having species conservation, wildlife conservation, environmental conservation is what we all need to act upon.

Denzil Mohammed: That intersection of public health and environmentalism, we need to be able to spread that message more and just how these issues of public health or environmentalism are not isolated issues. Similarly, immigration is not an isolated issue, it impacts our entire economy and entire society and I keep mentioning it. Without immigrants we probably would not have the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines because they both have immigrant co-founders. You’ve had a very terrific experience as an entrepreneur. But as a member of the Sikh community, how do you feel and what is your message to Americans when they are tempted to feel some sort of xenophobia in reaction, a very strong reaction to terrorist attacks but also political rhetoric?

Amar Sawhney: So you know it’s important to understand who the Sikhs are and why they look the way they look. Sikhs were created as soldier saints. They were supposed to be people who would adhere to the three pillars of Sikhism, which was to remember a higher power, to work with the honest sweat of their brow and to share what they had with others. So these are the three pillars of Sikhism and Sikhs were created when there was an oppressive environment prevailing in India of mass conversions and the majority of people didn’t have anywhere else to turn, so they were created as a group to protect others. And they were given certain edicts, to not be under the influence of drugs and alcohol, to have a weapon which was to be used in defense and not in offense at all times. There were a number of things that helped them control how they acted and part of that was they were to be given a distinctive uniform so that they could stand out and not merge in. So if you think about a terrorist, so terrorist doesn’t want to stand out, they want to merge in. So why would you put on a turban, have an unshorn beard and show up in public if you were a terrorist. That is not what people would do. People or terrorist wants to merge in, a Sikh wants to stand out. Unfortunately, images on TV that show somebody out in Afghanistan, where the trouble can be construed as being the same individual who is out over here and people don’t understand the difference. The way around it is education and one of the unfortunate but potentially saving grace type of side effects of these shootings, whether they are the FedEx facility a couple of weeks ago or the temple shooting in Milwaukee or or many such things that have happened, unfortunate incidents of violence against Sikhs at least help further the conversation and raise the awareness as to who these people really are and that they mean you no harm. In fact, they were created with the explicit purpose for people to go seek help from them.

Denzil Mohammed: Despite this, America has allowed you to create a legacy that you are still creating and still fashioning. And it is a home for immigrants regardless who, wherever they come from, you know they’re allowed to be American. They don’t have to shed their past identities just to be here. They don’t need a long lineage in order to succeed in business or in life.

Amar Sawhney: Look, America I think there is no parallel to what this country is. This country has given me a chance, given me an opportunity to do all the things that I would. I don’t think I could even have done these things in my own native India. It would have been hard for me to achieve this. So I think we’re quick to take sides and blame the system and blame others. But America is unparalleled, there are no parallels, meaning it is an amazing country. Social media has ended up creating a frenzy which attempts to highlight the exceptions and the silent majority gets ignored. I think that the American silent majority is very welcoming, very warm and has given me and most of the Sikh people that I know a great avenue to succeed. And they have worked hard and even the folks who were shot in the FedEx facility, they were 66 years old but they were working the midnight shift, the night shifts, just to make sure that they’re not a burden on the system. So the work ethos is deeply ingrained, sort of making sure you’re not a burden on anybody, making sure that you work hard. And those values, Sikh values are American values. American values are Sikh values. I think there’s a congruence in that.

Denzil Mohammed: The decimation of the refugee resettlement program of immigration in the past few years, those things are being turned around, and those will ultimately benefit America because immigrants who come here, people who choose to come here, people who leave everything behind, people are forced to come here have a certain ethos, as you said, of determination, resilience, not wanting to be a burden, wanting to succeed, wanting their children to have better than they did. Dr. Amarpreet Sawhney, thank you so much for making the time to be interviewed today for JobMakers. I really appreciate it and I hope that these messages continue to reverberate out there.

Amar Sawhney: Thank you, Denzil. It was my pleasure.

Denzil Mohammed: So happy that you joined us for this week’s inspiring story of another immigrant entrepreneur. If you know someone we should talk to, email Denzil, that’s D-E-N-Z-I-L, I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers podcast.

Episode 6: Max Faingezicht

Podcast logo; "Max Faingezicht on the future of work"Max Faingezicht’s Costa Rican background has helped him build a successful business connecting United States companies with remote software engineers in Latin America. His work has helped foster entrepreneurship in Costa Rica, bring valuable talent to U.S.-based companies and reshape the future of work at a time when remote work is booming. Learn what inspired his journey! We also have a full-length video interview here.

Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers. JobMakers launched in March in a time that mixed open vaccines to counter COVID-19, a new federal administration and a continuation of one of the most difficult years for businesses. It is a weekly podcast produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. I’m Denzil Mohammed, and every Thursday at noon I talk with risk takers. Immigrants who create new jobs, products and services in Massachusetts and across the United States, building on the entrepreneurial spirit that led them to America in the first place. When we return, we’ll meet this week’s outstanding immigrant entrepreneur. As uncertain as these times have been, certain concepts are becoming clear, that remote working is a viable option for some, that place-based collaboration is no longer always needed, that ideas can thrive even in the most dire of circumstances, and America’s a place where those ideas can be brought to life. For Max Faingezicht, an immigrant who founded ThriveHive, a marketing software company for small businesses, and Telescoped, which uses remote software engineering to connect Latin American engineers with U.S. companies in need of their skills, the entrepreneurial ecosystem of Boston and Cambridge allowed him to achieve dreams he didn’t even know he had when he arrived. In so doing, he can now foster entrepreneurship in his home country of Costa Rica by bringing much needed talent to U.S. companies, all the while determining what the future for it will look like. His fascinating immigration story that extends from Poland and Germany to Bolivia and Costa Rica, as well as his ideas on where workers go next, on this week’s JobMakers podcast. So Max, who are you and what are you doing here?

Max Faingezicht: Alright, well, my name is Max Faingezicht, which probably doesn’t give away the fact that I come from Costa Rica and I’m an entrepreneur who lives in Boston, immigrant and son of immigrants. And I love innovating and I love using technology to help positively impact people’s lives. And I’m here to hopefully tell some of my story and inspire your audience.

Denzil Mohammed: What kind of technology do you generally play with as an entrepreneur?

Max Faingezicht: Yeah, so for the last 10 years or so I’ve been very focused on software and software engineering. I built my first company in the marketing automation space so we had a subscription product to help small business owners. And now I’m working with remote software engineers in Latin America and helping them match with U.S. technology startups and companies that are building all of the tools that we use online, especially now in the new COVID world.

Denzil Mohammed: So you talk about engineers in Latin America, and I want to dive into that a lot more. But that idea of across the continent reach, your journey to the U.S. actually started in Poland, right?

Max Faingezicht: Now that’s right, yeah. So my grandparents (I mentioned I’m a family of immigrants), they came from Poland on one side and Poland and Germany on the other side and some of them came before the war kind of exploded, the Second World War, into Latin America seeking opportunities, finding a better situation for them and their families. And in one of the other sides they actually came escaping the war, and so both of my grandparents, they were both entrepreneurs. And they started companies in small businesses, which they grew through a lot of hard work and trying to be creative and innovative. And that was the example that they set for my father, who was also an entrepreneur. And that was kind of my family. You know dinner table conversation was all about the business, and what they were doing. And I got involved with that business early on as well.

Denzil Mohammed: So one side of the family was seeking opportunity, the other one had to flee.

Max Faingezicht: Yeah, that’s right. So the one that was seeking opportunity came to Costa Rica. Costa Rica still had their borders open back then so they could actually come in, become residents, and establish a small Jewish community there. They were there in the ’30s and brought a lot of people over the years and actually through the war time. And then on the other side, from the Germany side, my grandmother left right as Kristallnacht … she was in Berlin with the German side and she kind of escaped and ended up in Bolivia actually. So my grandparents on my mother’s side emigrated first through Bolivia, where they established themselves, and were there for maybe 20 years, and then they moved to Costa Rica at a very old age and started all over again, started from scratch. So very resilient people, very much thinking about hard work and education as the core of progress and just succeeding in life. So that’s the background.

Denzil Mohammed: And what kind of businesses did they start?

Max Faingezicht: Very traditional businesses. So on one side, my grandfather who came to Costa Rica, he went to the United States and actually in New York and other places, where he connected with other Jewish immigrants and he was able to import fabrics and set up a small fabric distribution shop, which supplied most of the different retailers. And he was a prime supplier for fabrics, and that was a company that he started from nothing and ultimately built into a very large small business. And then on my mom’s side, my grandfather was actually importing carpets, so similar story, very traditional businesses and all kind of based on this network of immigrants that they could help each other out.

Denzil Mohammed: It’s fascinating that it was such a long time ago yet they were able to find these connections and networks outside of the country, thousands of miles away in New York. That’s pretty incredible. I’m trying to picture what it was like for you, for them, and for you growing up in Costa Rica. How were you all as immigrants (you said that Costa Rica had a sort of open border policy at the time), were they received and welcomed?

Max Faingezicht: Yeah, I mean they were received, and welcomed to a certain extent. I think the country realized that immigrants bring some positive economic impact, but they were still outsiders, right? They didn’t speak the language, they looked different. It was a different tradition ’cause they were Jewish and obviously the country, it’s a very Catholic-Spanish influenced country, and so there was a little bit of a culture clash I think on both sides. But ultimately I think that they recognized that they came with good intentions, trying to do good work and to improve everyone’s livelihood around them, and so they stayed pretty close as a community, and I think that’s kind of what has happened even to today. So it’s a pretty close knit community.

Denzil Mohammed: So I’m wondering if you’ve ever felt like an outsider growing up.

Max Faingezicht: That’s a great question and I have, I will admit that I have. I feel like, well, first just the background being, feeling like an immigrant regardless of whether I was born in Costa Rica or not. But also just the idea of your heritage and being a small community inside a larger place. But also when I came to the U.S. and I came for school. So I mean I was as blessed as you can be in a program at M.I.T. with 50 percent international students. But the Mexicans had 10, 12 people, the Venezuelans had six, eight people. I was the one Costa Rican. So it’s, there’s always, you’re always a minority in a strange way. And then you got this strange last name growing up in a country like Costa Rica, so it’s not a very Latin American name. So yeah, I definitely feel like an outsider even to today, but I think it might all be more mental than anything else.

Denzil Mohammed: Yeah, I’m surprised you didn’t change your last name to Garcia or something.

Max Faingezicht: Yeah, that’s funny. I thought of it. Never actually did it, but I definitely thought of it.

Denzil Mohammed: At least we can all pronounce it.

Max Faingezicht: Yes, well, we were going to shorten it to like Fain, f-a-i-n. So a little easier.

Denzil Mohammed: So even before you got to the United States, you said entrepreneurship ran in your family. It is obviously not uncommon for people who move to another country to start a business. For various reasons, your grandparents are probably, in a sense, forced to, because language barriers, not tied into networks there. But they really use their ingenuity well to build up a small business into larger ones. And you were bitten with that bug early on, and actually started a spinoff business from your father’s company, right? And it, that started in China.

Max Faingezicht: That’s right, yeah.

Denzil Mohammed: Talk about making connections.

Max Faingezicht: Yeah, I mentioned my parents were both entrepreneurs so my mom actually started a small programming school at home. So we had like my room was no longer my room. I went to sleep with my brother and there was six computers and she was teaching young people in the 80s, and, first time into programming and spreadsheets. So I really knew I wanted to start something since very, very young. I think that was the example they set for me, but then I had joined my family’s business and we were in a … you know we did a bunch of trips to trade shows in China, Shanghai, and Guangzhou and some other places. And this is before China really exploded, so it was still like a pretty interesting place. And one of the suppliers told us that the product we were using for sign-making was actually mostly used for construction and for renovating commercial spaces. And so we started learning a little bit more and I decided to jump into a completely new industry, learn everything from the ground up. And I think that’s what really makes an entrepreneur, somebody who’s not afraid to learn and who sees these challenges as not only opportunities but also like an interesting problem to solve. I’m not a problem solver at heart, and so I think that that’s kind of what drew me to it. And so I started this company in the construction industry, which is actually still running. My brother oversees the operation back at home. And from nothing we became a pretty large company that ended up doing some large government bids and work. And you know every time I go back, I still see some of the buildings.

Denzil Mohammed: So even when you moved to the U.S. to study at M.I.T. you had this idea of being an entrepreneur. But you didn’t know about networking. You didn’t know about the systems in the U.S. You didn’t know about raising millions of dollars, did you?

Max Faingezicht: Oh no, absolutely not. I feel like all of the education that I’ve had has really taught me how to learn. Obviously, you know there’s the foundations and some important things that you learn along the way, but you really learn how to learn. And I came to the U.S., I had no idea what venture capital meant. I remember having to take a note and look it up after the first time I heard it and the same goes for private equity. I had no idea. I was completely blown away by the ecosystem in Boston and everything around M.I.T., and lucky in a way, right? ‘Cause you mentioned networks and definitely the program started that process. You know it jump started a lot of my career into the high-tech space. Otherwise it would have been a little bit of a different story. But I definitely think that learning and being willing to tackle new challenges … At the moment you think you know it all, you’re probably already losing ground to a new innovator who’s somewhere else doing interesting stuff.

Denzil Mohammed: Entrepreneurship sort of found you, right? You didn’t, you weren’t in your basement trying to start a hedge fund or start a new business. How did ThriveHive, your first business in the U.S., come about?

Max Faingezicht: I started with an idea at M.I.T. and that idea failed. And that’s another thing I learned, by the way. I should mention that failing is part of the process and it’s a healthy part of the process. So when that idea failed, I was still in school, and I had learned to tell all my friends what I wanted and to share my ideas and what my interests were. And so a classmate from M.I.T. connected me with an M.I.T. alum by the name of Sundar Subramaniam. And him and his partner, business partner [inaudible] had started a very successful company in the 90s. They IPOed that company and I got in a meeting with them. They were literally across the street from M.I.T. at 1 Main St. So we met and they pitched me this idea of a company that wasn’t doing very well and they wanted to kind of re-factor that company and rethink what it could become. And they had an analytics engine, and so that’s the core and the basis of what became ThriveHive, this marketing automation company. So it really came through networking, working with other immigrant entrepreneurs, and really being open to sharing your ideas and letting the world know what you’re looking for. Because I always thought if I want to be an entrepreneur, I have to have to come up with an idea and then start it. But actually a lot of ideas don’t start from just that. Sometimes you join another team, sometimes there’s two teams that join and end up building a third idea. So there’s a million different ways in which you can get into the entrepreneurial ecosystem. I think there isn’t just one recipe.

Denzil Mohammed: So at least 30 people have to thank you for giving them jobs at ThriveHive. Tell us about running that business in the U.S. What was that experience like?

Max Faingezicht: Yeah, I mean I think it was the time of my life. Back then, like I said, I came in 2009 not knowing what venture capital was and there I was in 2012, just a few years later, raising multimillion dollar rounds, hiring people, growing a business. We went to an accelerator in Techstars, which was also pretty critical in our history. And another immigrant, Semyon Dukach, who was the managing director, had a pretty big influence on me, and in what we were doing at ThriveHive. Just setting the right values, making sure that we were managing the business around the right metrics, but also caring for our people. And that’s also something that we always put front and center, people, meaning our customers, our team, our investors. In the end you can build the coolest technology, but if you don’t put the customer first, if you don’t care for your team, if you don’t keep your investors happy, then things don’t click. So it was just a wonderful time. We were really innovating and building what I think back then was one of the most powerful solutions to help small business owners like what my family had back at home. And I was just thinking of the thousands of people that we could help by putting these powerful tools in their hands. So that was the real driver behind that, the mission that we were after.

Denzil Mohammed: And you describe that this relationship that you have continuing with Costa Rica. I see a sort of humanitarian angle to this. But in terms of a business, tell us about Telescoped and what makes it so interesting?

Max Faingezicht: Absolutely, yeah. So after I left ThriveHive … I stayed with the company that acquired us for about three years and then I took some time off to think about what came next. And one of the things that really resonated with me is that with ThriveHive our mission was the most important thing. I knew that we were having positive impact in the world through small business owners. And I wanted my next thing to have as much if not more impact. And so we saw the movement of remote work, and that’s kind of where we saw an opportunity and our mission, our core purpose, that Telescoped is the pursuit of autonomy, opportunity and purpose for the talented people of the world. So we’re really thinking of, I think you were saying this earlier, but the people that I hired, the people that were our customers, however many people you can impact in your lifetime, I think that’s a good measure of success in my book. It’s not about dollars, it’s about who you can help. And so with Telescoped, we’re connecting software engineers in Latin America with companies in the U.S., but our model is pretty unique in the sense that we think about it as a new model of employment. So this is not outsourcing, it’s actually something different.

Denzil Mohammed: Tell us about this distinction. This audience really wants to make sure that it’s not outsourcing.

Max Faingezicht: Absolutely, yeah. So I think that the biggest insight we had is that outsourcing, while it has been great for many countries, Costa Rica included, it definitely limits the growth of the most talented people in the country. You’ve got amazing engineers who go from one outsourcing firm to the next. And basically, all of their work is, there’s always an intermediary that blocks them from continuing to grow their careers and their paths. And the reason for that is that the model is based on an arbitrage model. If I can pay an engineer like a mid-level job, but then someone as a major or senior then I make X amounts of dollars per engineer. And then that career path is dictated by the outsourcing firm.